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Area 51 Overheating Liquid Cooling Problem
Hi,
I am currently experiencing some issue with Alienware Area 51 system running Windows 7.
The problem is that every time I run or install a program, the system fan speeds up really high but eventually comes down and sometimes it doesn't. This happens for simple program such as when launching iTunes, running 3-4 Microsoft Office Word document, 5-10 browser or simply watching a video at 1080p. The fan basically speeds up due to sudden spike in CPU that is more than 5-10% or during idle. I am not sure what's causing this since all the master io board diagnostics test passed. I have no problem with lights or active venting system all works and worked fine even on Windows 8.1.
I am seeing this random spike in sys_fan in Windows 7 and 8.1 (like right now, installing Microsoft Office under Windows 7 after doing a complete reboot and the fan just suddenly speed up due to sudden spike in CPU). I did pretty much everything...the usual resetting, power drain, cmos reset, io board reset, etc.
I even replaced the master io board and still the same issue. Could it be that the CPU Fan IO Control Board is corrupted? if M\IO board was corrupted it would not shown the version of the board nor would the pre-boot mio board test pass, no?
I am running this at the moment, Alienware_Command-Center-Des_A05_R308775
Please help with any solution to this problem and the best command center for Windows 7.
Cass-Ole
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March 9th, 2014 15:00
When was the last time you cleaned/blew-out the radiator fins & sys fan? I use a plug-in air mattress pump for the job, since dust-buildup decreases cooling performance / heat exchange.
*** see photo of how to hold the top cage assembly for dusting out radiator:
article: how to install 120mm tops fans Area 51 system:
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/p/19331658/19734814.aspx#19734814
Area-51 Service Manual: page 66, remove liquid cooling assembly:
ftp://ftp.dell.com/Manuals/all-products/esuprt_desktop/esuprt_alienware_dsk/alienware-area51_Service%20Manual_en-us.pdf
How I remove top cage to service/clean sysfan/rad :
Is it time to try new "Arctic Silver" type thermal paste?
pump removal option one:
pump removal option two:
A few of us feel that A-ware mounted the system fan "upside down"; they come mounted so it sucks "warm" inside case air through the rad & blow it out the turned the system fan around" - to instead grab cooler outside air & blow it down through the radiator (& into the case) then mount a rear 92mm case fan to blow that warm air out ... if you dust your radiator/pull cage out, you might want to mount your system fan the "right way" to improve cpu cooling & liquid temps ...
application CmndCntr 2.08.09:
http://www.dell.com/support/drivers/us/en/19/DriverDetails/Product/alienware-area51?driverId=TD4C0&osCode=W764&fileId=2990314836&languageCode=en&categoryId=AP
read this carefully to extract/install CC 2.08.11 (from tactx download):
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/t/19472294.aspx
*** I use Intel XTU (extreme tuning utility) to report temps on each of 4 cores:
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/SearchResult.aspx?keyword=%22%22extreme+tuning+utility%22%22
I like using an Intel program to report on my Intel chip:
do not agree problem with corrupt master i/o ---> suspect radiator needs dusted ---> top sys fan remounted to optimal position ---> 92mm rear case fan ---> time for new thermal paste ... troubleshoot after Spring Cleaning
Tesla1856
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March 9th, 2014 13:00
Really should have a Dual-Boot so you can get back to original supported environment for testing. It only takes a small partition for Window7-64bit and Command Center v2.8.9.0. You could also just force-boot a Win7 partition with F12 on boot.
This is pretty much how it works normally. Cores are suppose to engage.
Try All CPU Meter Gadget and HW-Monitor for monitoring. Then Prime95 and see if Asetek Cooler and keep CPU under 80. If it can do that, it should be able to handle the daily stuff as well.
If everything is acting right (kicking in) but Asetek can't "keep up" then it might be failing.
MaSx2
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March 9th, 2014 14:00
Thank you Tesla for replying.
The reason I do not find it to be normal is because it did not happen before at all unless I was gaming. Only that time the sys_fan was running in high speed mode and the active venting system would flare up. This lead me to believe that something must have gone wrong all of sudden. Under Windows 7 it was working very good for few months and then suddenly during idle I would see the system fan going on rampage, along with other problem when installing/launching program fan shoots up along with active venting system. Mind you that even when CPU usage was very low, as in below 10% it would still behave that way.
Ran Prime95, it was around 70% and the system just crashed. >_<
Tesla1856
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March 9th, 2014 15:00
1. Again, for this machine, I would only test hardware under Win7-64. Some users with Aurora R4 under Win8/8.1 and CC 3.5x are still seeing flakey problems.
2. Without monitoring CPU % and core temps it's hard to say why. The system might just be doing what's it's designed to do to control temps. (or to do it's best).
3. Right, but if core temps are above idle-temp, this is normal. If everything is engaging but still can't control temps, this points to a Asetek Cooler failure. You will often see a Sys-Fan speed near max of 4000rpm. Be sure radiator and fan are clean.
4. Fine. Now you can re-create problem on demand to ease troubleshooting.
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/p/19563823/20572368.aspx#20572368
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/p/19545222/20518401.aspx#20518401
OCCT (PowerSupply Test) is another good StressTester.
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/t/19530277.aspx
MaSx2
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March 10th, 2014 22:00
Thank you guys for the respond. I will check into it later this week and get back with the results and my findings.
So far, the CC is showing 23, 23, 21 C temp reading. CPUID HW Monitor shows CPU Fan 1, 2, 3 at 100%, cores are around 49-55C. Everything seems to be alright except that the "fan" is not being controlled or handle properly. I ordered a CPU fan IO board hoping that it may solve the problem. Once I receive it and check it out let you know what's up. It may not help at all but worth a shot. I will also try out another M\IO board to see what's up as well. Before I do that, is there any version of CC you would recommend installing ONLY so that I don't end up bricking it if that is what's happening..
Cass-Olé, I did clean it nicely few times but I will definitely look more thoroughly about what you said and get back to you as well. Thank you!
Cass-Ole
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March 11th, 2014 00:00
my friend up there spoke of your liquid pump on its' possible way "out" - you can touch the tubes carefully - try to feel if one tube feels way hotter than the other ... a faulty pump will be way hot on one tube - noticeably cooler on the other side - indicative of the araora r4 "blocked pump" syndrome, or a faulty impeller I would surmise. If pump is going bad, no doubt master i/o reads cpu temp & ramps up fan rpm which it thinks will combat heat as normal, but pump does not co-operate. touch the pump housing & rad also ... mine feel cool at the moment.
Buying a new top powerboard & mi/o is never a bad idea, so you have known-good spares for future trouble-shooting ...
Uninstall your current CmndCntr 1st the right way:
http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/19/KCS/KcsArticles/ArticleView?c=us&docid=414842&doclang=en&l=en&s=gen&cs=
then install new version of CC ... CC 2.08.09 is a winner on 7, 2.08.11 winner on 7 & may be best for Win8, but both work & neither should brick your mio. There are no versions with 100% non-brick certainty, lol.
Tesla1856
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March 11th, 2014 00:00
1. What about after all cores are run around 75-100% for a while ? Does Asetek Cooler keep core temps under 80c?
2. I see you did the Power Dissipation but did you try testing MIO-Board and Sys_Fan in Dell Diags outside of Windows? That might reset the Sys-Fan control profile. AFAIK, there is no normal user accessible programming for it.
The pump runs at a constant speed and radiator-fan responds to core temps on a curve. Like Cass-Ole says, it can't be failing or blocked. Never seen a bad fan speed-up ... they usually just slow down.
MaSx2
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March 11th, 2014 13:00
I was thinking about bringing this up but you nailed it already. The tubes going from fan to cpu, one of the tube is way hotter while the other one is cool. So, can I replace the tube or do I need to buy a brand new one?
1. What about after all cores are run around 75-100% for a while ? Does Asetek Cooler keep core temps under 80c?
2. I see you did the Power Dissipation but did you try testing MIO-Board and Sys_Fan in Dell Diags outside of Windows? That might reset the Sys-Fan control profile. AFAIK, there is no normal user accessible programming for it.
The pump runs at a constant speed and radiator-fan responds to core temps on a curve. Like Cass-Ole says, it can't be failing or blocked. Never seen a bad fan speed-up ... they usually just slow down.
Yes, I have tried MIO Board test outside of the Windows. That's what I meant earlier. Yeah, it seems to be the problem with the tube at the moment. The system runs cool and everything but as he mentioned when I touched the tube, one of them feels very hot while the other one is cool. So, do I need to replace the entire pump or just the tube? Please advise.
To be honest, I am at the point of selling this computer even for $700~$800 buck and build a brand new one myself so I never have to worry, not able to upgrade and loss of support, etc.
Thanks again.
Cass-Ole
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March 11th, 2014 15:00
The cooling pump assembly is not serviceable, unless you remove the bottom copper cold plate, which is a new trick we just learned. I advised to re-dust the radiator & apply new thermal paste to cpu & retest. If a no go, consider buying a new pump+radiator (new/used on eBay) & click this link for plate removal/inspection details:
Aurora overheating problem solved:
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/p/19516339/20440773.aspx#20440773
Area 51 pumps have had no reports of "blockage". On install day, I would install new pump & check my temps/system performance. If ok, I would then disassemble the "bad" one, looking for signs of failure. Even though they can be reused after cold plate/o-ring removed, I doubt I would re-use mine, but I would check it for "blockage" before tossing it just the same. I base my advise on what I would do, others might have a better idea, so do wait for a 2nd opinion before shelling out $.
If you like your case, as we all do, you can put a new Ivy/Sandy Haswell cpu & mthrbrd in it, as well as a new power supply & keep AlienFx. A Corsair h100i fits in the roof also. Plenty of upgrade potential my friend. I've swapped in a 4770k into my "Asus-51" & done the psu swap. Search "Area 51 swap" on forum, & if you want more details? Ask & ye shall receive.
MaSx2
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March 11th, 2014 20:00
I did the above, removed the bottom copper plate and found some messy stuff inside. Cleaned it and since then the temp has gone down and I have been doing prime95 stress testing with 100% CPU usage for 5min and so far the system has not crashed unlike before, within a minute it crashed under 80%. The tube is warmer now. Before it was pretty hot.
The only thing is that, even under 80-100% usage, the active venting system did not flare up or shoot up. So I am not sure if something went wrong now?
Please check the following HW Monitor
Normal Use (BEFORE):
Normal Use (After cleaning the copper plate:)
During Stress Test:
Cass-Ole
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March 11th, 2014 20:00
you found some gook huh? anyway to take a picture for posterity? You might be the 1st A-51 owner affected by that precipitated gook ... glad to see you saved yourself 50 bucks with a diy.
I stress tested my memory earlier, my system fan shot up to 2100 rpm as my cou temps reached 70c w/all 4 cores engaged. I'm not sure if you mean your sys fan didn't budge under a load or your vents did not open (if set to open under predetermined variable, but, if you reinstalled CmndCntr, check your active vent status in Active Vent control. The check button for flare fans/open vents at startup, then open vents at X amount temps etc.
The overseers here say you might have to reinstall CC a couple times for it to "take" ... you can reopen CC & click repair if the mood strikes you, see if it helps.
Tesla1856
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March 11th, 2014 21:00
Ya, Asetek Cooling is good, but it looks like it does need some routing maintenance every 3 or 4 years ... or sooner on some models.
Prime95 StressTest Sys-Fan rpm at 1981 look good. Core temps <= 71c is also good.
Now try OCCT PowerSupply test and get the nVidia going concurrently. Finally, StressTest with OCCT and Full Virus Scan.
MaSx2
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March 12th, 2014 16:00
Unfortunately, I realized after cleaning the mess that I should have taken a picture of it. Basically, inside the cooper plate, one side was clogged and covered completely, while the other side was clean.
My system fan did budge but not loudly as it did before like a jet (which is good, if I might add). Also, the "active vent" did not open up all the way either, instead stayed at the mid position, as usual. did flare up to max after running the stress test as suggested by Tesla. This could be because my temp never went up above 70C?
About the flare up on start, the only reason I usually don't enable the flare fan at start up because it makes this screeching noise and sounds like stuck on something sometimes. Any remedy for it?
I have it set up as, "Open vent when system fan exceed 50%"
As for the cooling, I found something strange inside and took a picture of it later on.
Have a look;
Ya, Asetek Cooling is good, but it looks like it does need some routing maintenance every 3 or 4 years ... or sooner on some models.
Prime95 StressTest Sys-Fan rpm at 1981 look good. Core temps <= 71c is also good.
Now try OCCT PowerSupply test and get the nVidia going concurrently. Finally, StressTest with OCCT and Full Virus Scan.
Yep, it seems like that. Everything ran smoothly and no crash whatsoever.
So far so good guys. Thank you both for helping me thus far! It has been a pain in the ass for quite sometimes now. Maybe, now I can go back to Windows 8.1 without worry but then again fear that it might start all over and I will lose the best thing going on right now. >_<
Cass-Ole
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March 13th, 2014 01:00
yeah, I think the 1st wave of Asetek coolers have the hard/rigid tubing, & the 2nd wave has softer tubing as a revision. Yours looks like the softer tubing ... might be a clue in the near future ... if an A-51 owner complains fans are on high, I'll know to ask if it's rigid vs soft tubing to help diagnosis, lol ... it's possible the type2 also saw a coolant change that precipitates into "gunk" ... leading to as yet unforeseen maintenance. So what was strange inside that you photo'd it? The creamy ecto-plasm?
MaSx2
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March 13th, 2014 01:00
Yes the second picture is what I have. Those stuff looks and feel as if it wasn't suppose to be there, built up over time or something.
Can you please provide me the direct link to the ones you're talking about? I don't trust the random version link I find.
Thanks!