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glnz
Cobalt

STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

A year later, and I discover again that I STILL cannot boot from a non-UEFI CD on my UEFI Win 7 Pro SP1 64-bit Dell even though "Enable Legacy ROMs" is ENABLED in the BIOS and Secure Boot is OFF.

Dell - this is your fault.  You set what the BIOS can do, and you could have protected our ability to boot from ALL our past CDs.

My original details are here -

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19605131?pi21953=1

That thread from a year ago describes the issue but then goes off on a tangent into my (successful) experience in establishing dual-booting, but THIS ISSUE remains.  My Dell Optiplex 7010 MT (which is now dual-booting Win 7 Pro SP1 64-bit and Win 10 Pro 64-bit) will NOT BOOT a legacy CD that is not UEFI even though "Enable Legacy ROMs" is CHECKED in the BIOS and Secure Boot is OFF.  (My BIOS is A20.)

What is the fix??

Please reply here, not in my old thread above.  Thanks.

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9 Replies
Uranium

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

UEFI Secure Boot is a Windows 8 and up feature.  It did not exist nor does any windows 7 disk support advanced format drives.   F6 drivers are required.   This is NOT Dell's fault nor are they going to fix it.  CSM is BIOS Booting.  UEFI booting is windows 8 AHCI booting.  Not booting from all the past disks is intentional by design by MICROSOFT.  Dell is not going to issue non Microsoft jail bios back to Class 1.

If they had left it alone you would still be able to boot DOS, and OS2, and Early Linux Kernels with DOS GRUB MBR Partitions.


  • BIOS configuration
    • CCTK and OMCI can configure both UEFI and Legacy modes, but you should test against a UEFI/Secure Boot enabled system to validate your current BIOS configuration.
  • HDD configuration
    • UEFI Mode requires GPT partitions which are different from Legacy Mode/MBR partitions.
  • Security tools
    • Review your HDD encryption and other security tools for compatibility
  • OS Deployment Tools
    • KACE, MDT, and ConfigMgr will support Windows 8 but may require you to install the latest version (ConfigMgr 2012 SP1 for example) to be able to deploy Windows 8 on a UEFI/Secure Boot enabled system.
  • Boot methods
  • WinPE 4.0 (available in the ADK) is required to deploy to UEFI enabled systems. The latest Mass Storage controller drivers may be required.
  • UEFI PXE is also required and is different from Legacy PXE.

Win 7 must be installed ATA mode then the patch run from microsoft is required before switching to AHCI.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/922976

Once switched to Ahci and working you install the version of RST that works for your model.

Newer and newer versions of the RST drop more and more support for older chipsets.

The latest version 15 or 14 or 13 or 12 or 11 may not work.

Before 9.x it was called MSM (Matrix Storage Manger)

it changed from MSM to  RST in the 9.x versions.

10.1 or higher is required for GPT partitions larger than 2TB.

9.6 or higher is required for Advanced format Drives aka bigger than 120 Gig.

Intel Rapid Storage Technology (RST) driver v9.6 and above.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-031502.htm
http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/highlights/chpsts/imsm

9.6.0.1014

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/15251

 

10.1.0.1008 was the transition version.

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/20104

 

10.6.0.1022

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/20707

11.0.0.1032

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/20868


 

 


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glnz
Cobalt

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Speed - you're like my older, wiser brother (who happens to drink WAY too much coffee).  I'm actually beginning to understand what you say, bro.

Update - I have now made TWO bootable CDs of Macrium Reflect Free.  These two CDs show the problem.

First, in my old Dell Optiplex 755 Win XP Pro SP3 32-bit machine, I installed Macrium Reflect Free and made a bootable CD with the included Win PE. I assume it will boot in my XP machine. However, that CD will NOT boot in my other PC, which is my Dell Optiplex 7010 MT that dual-boots Win 7 Pro SP1 64-bit and Win 10 Pro 64-bit, even though the BIOS in this Dell Optiplex 7010 MT ENABLES Legacy ROMs.

Second, in that other PC (my Dell Optiplex 7010 MT that dual-boots Win 7 Pro SP1 64-bit and Win 10 Pro 64-bit), I again installed Macrium Reflect Free (with 64-bit architecture) and made a new bootable CD (with the lowest level of Win PE, which is 3.1), and that CD WILL boot in that second machine.

Why are we being tortured this way? I have other bootable CDs from my XP days - is there any way to get them to boot in the second (Win 7 Pro 64-bit) PC?  Speed - no hope?

Thanks.
-

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Philip_Yip
Indium

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Why are we being tortured this way? I have other bootable CDs from my XP days - is there any way to get them to boot in the second (Win 7 Pro 64-bit) PC? 

CD/DVDs are now legacy devices. FAT32 formatted bootable USBs are the way forward.

Dr Philip Yip
Tech Enthusiast and Author of the Unofficial Dell Windows Reinstallation Guide

Windows FAQs and OEM Downloads


#IDoNotWorkFor Dell
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Uranium

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

UEFI CLASS 2.31 (Windows Secure Boot) systems WILL NOT EVER BOOT from ANY 32 bit media or DOS or Linux.

If UEFI allowed 32 bit os you could make a DOS boot flash drive or EL TORITO DOS BOOT CD.

UEFI CLASS 2.31 and up REQUIRE 64 bit media(Which means No DOS or WIN98) and REQUIRE an OS that has paid the extortiion fee to the microsoft mafia to have a certificate in BIOS.

UBUNTU 12.04.5 has this earler versions do not 12.04.1   etc.

Booting earlier versions of ubuntu BRICKS some machines and makes them NEVER BOOT ANYTHING EVER AGAIN.

Other fine versions of Knoppix etc even the 64 bit versions DO NOT BOOT AT ALL EVER because they have not paid to have their OS in the Bios as allowed.


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glnz
Cobalt

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Speed - Important detail - my "Secure Boot" is OFF.  You keep writing about it being on, but for a year it has been OFF.

The BIOS settings in my Dell Optiplex 7010 are set for
UEFI boot - ON
Secure Boot - OFF
Enable Legacy Option ROMs - ON

When I have a legacy bootable CD in the CD/DVD, reboot and hit F12, the one-time boot selection screen shows me two categories - Legacy and UEFI.  Under each category there are lines for various booting sources.  In this case, under Legacy, if I hit CD/DVD, I get the error message that it won't boot.

Please comment on THIS situation.  Thanks.

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glnz
Cobalt

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Phil - Always a pleasure to get a note from you.

Understand about CDs, and anyway they are too mechanical and the cheap CD-DVD units in all my Dells stop working after a while and have to be replaced.  One of them is groaning already.

However, I am still trying to figure out how to make bootable USB sticks.  Maybe you have some great tutorials?

I have managed to make a USB stick bootable twice but forgot how to do it.  Ideally - my *** - I would be able to make my own bootable USB stick that could boot:
BOTH my current Dell Optiplex 7010 with the UEFI settings above and which now dual-boots Win 7 Pro SP1 64-bit and Win 10 Pro 64-bit
AND my old but still needed Dell Optiplex 755 that boots only Win XP Pro  SP3 32-bit

-  AND on that stick I would be able to add (a) the repair installs for my three OSes above and (b) all sorts of useful maintenance programs that would run in both of my machines.
-  AND over time I could add more bootable stuff but without having to re-do everything
-  AND on that stick the "background" OS (when needed) would be something easy to work with like Win 7 PE (and not Linux which I have never used).

I realize that my *** USB stick is not easy for an expert to do, and I'm just a beginner.  (Last night, I started to try but quickly saw that some iso files I already have can't be put on the stick at all.)  Can you point me in the right directions to learn how to make my *** USB stick?  Thanks.

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Uranium

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Secure Boot OFF is required. You are demanding that New UEFI systems boot and work with 1981 ATA MSDOS FAT16 MBR.

LEGACY OPTION ROMS ON is NOT EQUAL TO ATA LEGACY BOOT.  MBR Booting is Request Denied for ALL UEFI systems and OS.  You cannot install windows 7 and up on an MBR partition.

It must be a GPT UEFI partition. This is not an option this is how you will do or you will not use windows.

The answer to your demand that 32 bit stuff works with UEFI systems is Request Denied by MICROSOFT not Dell.

ATA  32 Bit MBR DOS is not available for booting on UEFI systems.

This is why you cannot install AHCI systems with WIN98 or FAT32 GRUB Linux booting. YOU CANNOT USE 32 Bit ANYTHING on UEFI Systems.

This is not and will not happen. Legacy ATA BOOTING is not part of the secure boot OFF equation.  ATA = MBR = DOS = 120GIGS or smaller.

Advanced Format Drives = Larger than 120 Gig = 512e = AHCI = Advanced format.

 

For AHCI an INTEL RST Driver version of at least 9.X is required.

For AHCI and GPT Partitions larger than 2TB INTEL RST 10.1 OR HIGHER is REQUIRED.

This means F6 DRIVERS are REQUIRED to install in AHCI mode from the beginning.

This is also why you cannot dual boot XP and win7.  XP can boot from FAT32 or MBR Partitions.  Windows 7 REQUIRES NTFS GPT Partitions.  XP Cannot Boot from a GPT partition.

A win98 CD or an XP CD or a Vista CD that is 32 bit will not boot at all in a UEFI Class 2.31 system.   A 64 bit VISTA OR 7  DVD will not see or recognize any Drives that are windows 8 or 10 formatted nor will they be able to write to these partitions when the drive is larger than 120 gigs and or if the Sata Operation is set for AHCI mode instead of Legacy ATA MODE.

YOU CANNOT USE Hard Drives Larger than 120 GIGS with windows 7 because ATA LEGACY Partitions require Advanced Format. This is called 512 byte emulation, or 512e. Sometimes Advanced Format drives are shown as 4K/512e, comparing the physical and logical sizes, where eight 512e sectors are sent for each 4K sector.  512 byte sectors are from DOS aka WIN98 Fat 32.

Before Advanced Format disks were available, NTFS assumed that the logical sector size that was exposed by the disk interface was equal to the physical sector size of the disk. Although NTFS was originally designed to theoretically support larger sectors sizes, NTFS assumed that these two sector sizes were equal. When NTFS performs buffered writes at the end of a file in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2, NTFS pads the write operation to the end of the sector size which is exposed by the disk interface (the logical sector size). This behavior guarantees sector alignment. However, because the size of a logical sector of a 512e drive is 512 bytes, the buffered write does not align to the physical sector size of the drive’s hard disk. This causes the Advanced Format disk to internally update the 512-byte logical sector within its 4KB physical sector, which can result in performance and reliability issues(Corrupted Drive).

Introduction to advanced format (4K) disks

One of the problems of introducing this change in the media format is the potential for introducing compatibility issues with existing software and hardware. As a temporary compatibility solution, the storage industry is initially introducing disks that emulate a regular 512-byte sector disk, but make available info about the true sector size through standard ATA and SCSI commands. As a result of this emulation, there are, in essence, two sector sizes real 4k and 512 Emulated.

4 KB native: This media has no emulation layer and directly exposes 4 KB as its logical and physical sector size. The overall issue with this new type of media is that the majority of apps and operating systems do not query for and align I/Os to the physical sector size, which can result in unexpected failed I/Os.
512-byte emulation (512e): This media has an emulation layer as discussed in the previous section and exposes 512-bytes as its logical sector size (similar to a regular disk today), but makes its physical sector size info (4 KB) available. The overall issue with this new type of media is that the majority of app and operating systems do not understand the existence of the physical sector size, which can result in a number of issues.

8 Gigabytes is the hard drive size limit for MSDOS 6.22 and 2 Gigabytes is the max for partition size using this operating system aka FAT16.

Fat 32 has a 2TB limit but WIN9X is limited to 32 Gig Max partition size and 64 Gigs is max  drive size for FDISK FAT32.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/263044


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glnz
Cobalt

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

Phil - You wrote "CD/DVDs are now legacy devices. FAT32 formatted bootable USBs are the way forward."

Please send me links for learning how to make bootable USB sticks.  This will be new for me.  Thanks.

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Uranium

RE: STILL cannot boot from legacy CD on UEFI Win 7 PC - DELL WHY NOT?

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/universal-usb-installer-easy-as-1-2-3/#more-3827

The Pendrive Linux utility makes Windows Bootable usb installers.

In your case the ONLY one that works is the 64 bit version of win7 or 8 or 10.

To install the Windows USB/DVD Download Tool:

1. Click to open the Windows USB/DVD Download Tool page.

2. Click Download then Run.

3. Follow the steps in the setup dialogs. You'll have the option to specify where to install the Windows USB/DVD Download Tool.

You must be an administrator on the computer on which you are installing the Windows USB/DVD Download tool. It requires the Microsoft .NET Framework version 2.0 or higher.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/create-reset-refresh-media

Microsoft has removed Windows 10 Build 10586 from official .ISO availability, meaning it’s only possible to upgrade to the newest version through Windows Update.

 

 


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The forum is primarily user to user, with Dell employees moderating
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