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U2713H desturated adobeRGB colors
Hello Dell community,
I have purchased a U2713H monitor, I am trying to use it in a preset AdobeRGB monitor mode (didn't purchased colorimeter yet), but in color managed applications colors are a quite desaturated, especially in red channel.
How it is configured: Win8.1 64b, Nvidia 560Ti, DVI port cable, Dell U2713H 6500K.icm color profile set for monitor in windows controls. Dell monitor set to AdobeRGB OSD preset.
What it does: Color managed apps like LR, PS and color managed browsers shows desaturation especially in red channel. In non managed sRGB apps, colors look right (compared to other sRGB devices I own), no oversaturation is present.
If I switch a GPU (windows icm profile) to sRGB, all colors managed / nonmanaged are matched, but I suppose there is no wide gamut displayed than.
As I understand it from what I have "researched" on the internet, wide gamut monitors should display precise colors only in managed applications and oversaturate non managed ones. It appears behavior of my monitor is exactly the opposite, precise colors in nonmanaged, desaturation in managed.
Any ideas what could go wrong?
yumichan
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March 8th, 2014 02:00
"Dell U2713H 6500K.icm" is a profile for native gamut of your GB-LED monitor. Native gamut has "extended/oversaturated red" (Standard/Custom OSD modes but they have not D65 white, maybe custom mode with R100 G91, B97).
If you want to use precalibrated OSD modes in color managed enviroment without a proper calibration and measurement, you should use the standar profile that describes this preset. In your case it is "AdobeRGB1998.icm" of AdobeRGB mode or "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm" (or similar name) os sRGB mode.
If you have not AdobeRGB1998.icm in your system you can obtain a free clone in ArgyllCMS calibration package ("ref" directory):
http://www.argyllcms.com/
yumichan
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March 9th, 2014 08:00
An icm file is a file with the description of the color behaviour of some device: gamut, gamma... such things. As an aditional feature it can contain VCGT info to calibrate (neutral grey ramp) in GPU a monitor.
AdobeRGB1998.icm is a STANDARD profile that decribes a colorspace with particular RGB coordinates, white point and gamma.
For a display it is recomended that its applied profile contains ACTUAL values of gamut and gamma. It it done with a measurement device (spectrophotomer, colorimeter..). But you have not ths device so your ONLY choice is to trust in factory calibration. I mean that STANDARD AdobeRGB profile were very very close to actual AdobeRGB OSD behavior.
Same applies to sRGB, same applies to standard gamut displays and "display's driver" icm.
About factory calibration. It is done at absurd default values os contrast and brightness (50%) so its calibrated to ~200cd/m2 or more. If you change one of these values white point will drift (perhaps a little, perhaps too much).
Try how they look with Brightness 20-30% and defalut contrast 50%.
Regarding xrite device, I do not kno if OEM devices will work, I have a retail one.
It seems that i1Pro/i1Pro2 spectrophotometers will work with Dell Color Calibration solution 1.5 or newer, BUT they will measure wrong ANY LED MONITOR. It's not Dell's or software's fault, the culprit its the low optical resolution of i1Pro spectrophotometers (10nm, so they miss blue measumement).
A retail i1DisplayPro colorimeter will measure flawlessly out of the box.
A final note: Dell Color Calibration solution 1.5.3 (Dell's applitation for LUT3D calibration, a customized Xrite's i1Profiler) still has some flaws and Dell (or xRite) does not care: it needs more black to R,G,B, measuremets to caracterize native gamma properly in order to minimice color cast in grey gramps. Current state is "acceptable" but no optimal. Application should take 15 o 20 measurements from black to each 4 colors in order to do it properly. As I said previously Dell does not care, reported months ago...
I forget to say something about:
Would both work with Dell's calibration software? Are there other compatible HW options, which could be used with other monitors as well in the future?
Yes, i1DisplayPro it's "future proof" because it works with spectral corrections. Even if Dell or ofer manufacturer does not give you software for this colorimeter if will work with free software like ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI (GPU calibration , not LUT3D calibration) and community spectral corrections or Xrite ones (OLED.. and such). It's too long fro explain here how spectral correctiosn work but think of them as numerical correctiosn applied to actual measurements of the colorimeter. Each backlight technology needs its spectral correction to be properly measured with a colorimeter. They are files storing power for each wavelenght from red to violet for a particular backlight technology: GBLED, WLED, OLED, CCFL..
yumichan
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October 14th, 2014 06:00
This behaviour seems to be caused by faulty color enhancements in your GPU, like nvidia's digital vibrance. Disable ALL of them
Do not use "Native", since native will aim to native white (maxime contrast) whicj is not a "daylight" white but a green-cyan one.
If in doubt create ICM v2 profile with DCCS and validate it with ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI and "RG_phosphor" spectral correction (SEARCH in this forum how to do this, it has been posted too many times), and also calibrate "Custom color" OSD mode with ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI (it will be stored in graphics card, not in monitor's LUT3D) with "RG_phosphor" correction in order to see it there is someting weird with DCCS or its your fault (missconfiguration) or your computers fault, or even faluty monitor.
bravehorsie
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March 9th, 2014 01:00
Thank you yumichan, you nailed it.
I suppose, I should made more reading, before buying a wide gamut monitor. I have tried both icm profiles according to OSD modes and the colors looks about right now, they are probably far from precise, but at least I don't see a strong tint.
Dell U2713H 6500K.icm is set as monitor profile during installing Dell drivers. There was no information in manual, that precalibrated modes shouldn't be used with it. I already have tried AdobeRGB1998 and noticed the color change, but have read somwhere, that it is intended for printing and should not be used for monitors.
Can you please explain how factory calibration setting of a new monitor happens for precalibrated profiles?When new monitor is factory calibrated, do they measuring (with some HW device) and set precalibrated OSD modes (sRGB, AdobeRGB) against according icm standard profiles? Or is there some preset OSD calibration, which is copied 1:1 in all new monitors without further measuring?
I think I am now ready to buy XRite i1Display Pro for hw calibration. I noticed there is an "OEM" version and "RETAIL". Would both work with Dell's calibration software? Are there other compatible HW options, which could be used with other monitors as well in the future?
Thanks in advance for bringing the light.
Evguruna
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October 14th, 2014 06:00
Hello
It seems i am experiencing similar problems, but reading this thread still do not understand what to do, why it works so..with not a cheap calibrations device and good monitor..
I am trying to make calibration of my U2713H monitor with Dell Color Calibration solution (1.5.3) and i1 Display Pro. it already took couple of days of tries, playing with versions of the program and calibrations. In some cases i get unusable (really ugly and unusable) result with some error message that target luminance can not be achieved. Then i just make factory reset of monitor settings and start calibration again. If i get not error - i get some profile. Then i check before/after colors - and i see that most of reds, magentas, oranges, greens, cyans - almost all the colors, except may be blues, become desaturated. for calibration I select "luminance 120" and "native" of "AdobeRGB" settings. Does something goes wrong, or this is normal behavior?
I do not understand the logic of this... If i buy the monitor, which is capable to reproduce the extended amount of colors (wide-gammut monitor) - and calibrator with a task to make the screen to show colors correctly - WHY i have desaturated colors after calibration, like if they would be converted into norrower color space?
Guys, how it works? I have read a lot of.. but not i do not understand - if my monitors show correct colors, of this is calibrations software/hardware problem?
By the way, CCS version 1.5 caused conflict with Canon Digital Photo Professional v4 - colors became completely wrong (like if the images were converted into 8 or 16-colors mode..). After un-installation of the color calibration solution everything back to normal.
Evguruna
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October 14th, 2014 06:00
Thanks for the explanation. Just had a look at NVIDIA control panel - and yes, there is "Digital vibrance" slider set to 50%. But there is not option to disable it - only to adjust from 0 (BW) to 100%...
Will make re-calibration with AdobeRGB settings and then try to play with Argyll..
yumichan
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October 14th, 2014 08:00
Make a clean install of nvidia drivers, "digital vibrance" should be set at 0% without going black & white. Which GPU do you have?
Evguruna
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October 15th, 2014 06:00
Re-installed the video driver. Nothing changed - saturation 0 = BW.
I have NVIDIA GPX 650 videocard.
yumichan
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October 15th, 2014 07:00
Try with another computer since your issues "seems" at first guess to be caused by your GPU.
To work with photography or illustration ALWAYS choose an AMD (former ATI) graphic card or a nvidia Quadro, nor a regular nvidia.
Evguruna
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October 15th, 2014 09:00
Di not know about such problems with NVIDIA :(
Testing another comp is a good idea..will try.
I am working with linux also, and, at least some years ago, it had some problems with ATI video drivers - so, dealing with NVIDIA was easier and less problematic. But did not have wide-gammut screen at that time..
yumichan
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October 15th, 2014 10:00
All non Quadro nvidias or intel integrated iGPUs WILL have banding issues if you calibrate using GPU LUTs (since not all monitors have LUT3D calibratable like U2413 or U2713H and even these Dells need GPU calibration in "custom color" OSD mode).
It's a hardware related problem, lowbitdepth LUTs, no driver or firmware or BIOS related, it's just these cards have LUTs unsuitable for proper GPU calibration.
The bigger the gamut, the more noticeable the banding will be if you calibrate the monitor not using DCCS.
So if you test a GPU calibration (calibration NOT inside monitor like DCCS & CAL1/CAL2) you will get a very BAD banding in gradients and it would be your GOU's fault not monitors. For example using ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI, or i1Profiler from i1DisplayPro retail program.
It's just a warning before you test your dell with ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI, if you see banding it's your nvidias fault, ALWAYS.
At this point of time, Windows 7 or newer is the better choice for photographic work (10bit workflow).
Of course, if you want to use Linux, then try to get an nvidia Quadro if you do not trust AMD/ATI drivers in this platform. A Quadro K600 is an entry profesional GPU (10bit workflow with Photoshop and your dell U2713H under windows) and will not have banding issues even if you calibrate in GPU not using DCCS and CAL1/CAL2. I think it's about 160 euro.
Evguruna
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October 15th, 2014 11:00
Thanks a lot, Yumichan, for explanations.
For graphics I use only Windows 7 64 bit, linux is for different job-related tasks (satellite images processing and so on).
And I make a calibration with DCCS, with cal1/cal2 options. But with every next calibration everything i less and less clear and more strange to me. No I look at my photos I processed recently - and they definitely look less red and saturated, than before. Today I had their prints on hand - and they were also more red, as on my screen before. I print in professional photolab, and they usually have very good color reproducing.
BUT before this the same monitor was calibrated with the same calibrator on the same computer! And i had not problems with colors... Then, after some months, i decided to make re-calibration, and i found the updated version of DCCS, and installed it, and all the story started.. I can not work, I do not understand what to do, how to solve the problem.. almost crying already :(
Send few photos to print now. Tomorrow will see how they look like...
Still did not find enough time to investigate how to "play" with Argyll.. will take some time.
yumichan
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October 16th, 2014 09:00
Try to perfom a factory reset in the monitor (so CAL1 and CAL2 are cleaned) in menu->screen options (OSD), then re-try DCCS 1.5.3, if not working, downgrade to 1.5.1, if not working try with another computer.
FabXP
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December 28th, 2014 15:00
Very very helpfull content here! :) ... made me think a lot as I'm about to build a new system and want to use Dell 3014 or 2713H.
I already bought a Palit GeForce GTX 980 Super Jetstream. But now I'm not sure whether I should return it.
Should I buy a Nvidia Quadro or an AMD card instead (for photoshop work)?
I think the 3 contras above are strong enough to use a GeForce 980 GTX. It is fast, silent, banding should be no problem if the hardware calibration of the Dell 3014 or 2713H works. I will survive without 10-bit output.
What are your thoughts on this? Any ideas, suggestions? Do you think my conclusion above is wrong?
By the way, is it possible to use a silent performant GTX 980 just for calculations (CUDA etc.), but link the monitors to a cheap Quadro Card, just for the 10-bit graphics card output? Probably not?
Thanks for any help!!
yumichan
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December 29th, 2014 02:00
Dell U3014 is a BAD choice, ALWAYS. Dell makes sense only in economic models: U2413 or U2713H. For the proce of a U3014 with LOTS of ISSUES you can get a 27" PA272W or even far better Eizo CX271.
Return the geforce, even a 30 euro low profile pasive AMD GPU will perform better to use in any kind of monitor. If you want CUDA, get a Quadro.
I'll go with a economic V4900 or even the next gent entry level firepros W2xxx because.
10bit workflow allows you to do not suffer any kind of round error while in Photoshop, it's a WIN.
Plus, you do not have gamma L* in Dell color Calibratuon solution (so if wanted you mus apply GPU calibration) and DCCS is far for perfect. It takes too few native gamma measurements so if your monitor have some kind of non-linearity between ots grey measured... you'll get some coloration in grey ramp. With a cheap AMD GPU and DispaclGUI (96 patches only for grey calibration) this won't happen.
To use Geforces to image editing IS A WASTE. I'll go for a cheap Firepro (v4900/W2100) if you are asking for advice. Now you choose