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XPS 8940, lock up issue with every Bios > 2.3.0
XPS 8940
Greetings,
im having the same issue as many others in the forum. Once i updated my Bios to anything > 2.3.0 it locks up while idle.
This happens i.E. when the PC is on over night while nothing GPU or CPU exhaustive is running. (i.E. no games just browser etc.)
The weird thing is the fans start spinning like crazy and the keyboard is responsive but the screen is frozen and i have no choice but to power it down and reboot.
In the newest BIOS 2.9.0 the issue was even worse than that. At least once every 24 hours the PC would simply lock.
If something loadheavy like a game is running it wont lock up.
I already disabled the Windows 10 Quick Boot. Checked in Bios that the start is loading ALL Drivers etc. instead of the minimal load and checked via GPU and CPU Temp the temp. Furthermore i made serveral system checks which also lead to nothing.
At one point i even replaced the whole ram to make sure this isnt the issue and checked the Memory and the GPU for errors. => None occured.
Temperature is NOT the issue here, as i had previously many Alienware and Dell PCs and Laptops.
As others pointed out the issue seems to lie within the BIOS changes from 2.3.0 to 2.4.0 the NVIDIA GPU and the low system load.
Changing it to 2.3.0 effectivly prevented the locking for 2 consecutive days now. Sad thing i had to stop the service that updates windows to downgrade properly as the windows updates will immediatly upgrade to 2.8.0 on reboot.
In general this is a fairly known issue and im really wondering how this isnt fixed in 2.9.0 but became worse.
Can anyone @ Dell check the issue here? Either the processor locks up totally due to an issue with some cstates or something else. But as far as i see this the issue isnt solved currently: 08.09.2022
ark628
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September 8th, 2022 04:00
Okay i will now try the solution someone has posted on the forums:
Under the bluetooth devices there is a particular NVIDIA device.
As @bdtnr pointed out in the thread https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8940-does-yours-freeze-randomly/td-p/8226583 this device shouldnt be there and could interfere with the system.
I have now deinstalled and removed the device. Upgraded to 2.9.0.
Well see how that works out.
ispalten
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September 8th, 2022 08:00
No,, you don't need to do that. Re-enable Windows Update, and then OPEN the BIOS when booting (F2) and go to the Security and the UEFI Capsule Firmware Updates setting and DISABLE it.
That should stop all CAPSULE UPDATES from being installed. Yes, so say it does anyway, but I'm not 100% sure of that? The BIOS System Log doesn't match what Windows Update states when it installs the new BIOS. Suspect this is due to how Windows Update Drivers are installed via Windows and using the Registry to do that, that or when it does go to install it discovers you either have denied it via BIOS setting or in some case, it is trying to install what you already have and doesn't do it.
ispalten
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September 8th, 2022 08:00
Since this is the first time you've posted about this problem, I'd like to get some more info and add my comments to this.
Let us know how it works for you.
ark626
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September 9th, 2022 00:00
So far i have enabled Updates again and reupdated to 2.9.0
Afterwards i deleted said driver.
Sorry for the missing info on the system i thought that while
selecting the servicetag it would mention the configuration of the system aswell.
The PSU is the Dell one that got shipped (500 Watt if im correct)
Only thing i have exchanged is the RAM for Crosair RAM 3200 Mhz 16 GB x 2
The NVIDIA Card is a 3060 GTX driver game ready 31.0.15.1640
CPU is the i9-11900K with 3,5 GHz driver 10.0.19041.1865
drive is M2 NVMe PM9A1 Samsung 1 TB driver 10.0.19041.1865
Keyboard Razer Black Widow
Mouse Razer 8k Viper
Headset Razer Kraken V3
Monitor Dell 25 Gaming Monitor Dell S2522HG
The keyboard is mounted on the Monitors USB.
I also sometimes experienced(not recently) an issue where the keyboard doesnt work properly.
i.E. you pressed F then the keyboard would write an F and after a Second continue to write Fs as if
you hadnt released the key. This might have been due to the daisy chain (keyboard is connected via monitor)
and the drivers that where installed.
For the question i honestly dont understand why at one point Dell dindt ask a user to
exchange his PC for a working one while they have one machine with the issue to work on.
At this point we wouldve done something similar to tackle the issue.
In general if it would be due to a programm failing there should be
some logs in windows i.E. crashlogs dumps etc. Since it is only happening when nothing
load heavy runs on the GPU or CPU i assumed the powerstates and c states where contributing to the issue.
Also a drop in the Power of the CPU i also doubt it is. Otherwise it shouldnt happen when there
is no load. Quite the opposite.
For some people changing the power mode and the quick start worked not for me.
Since the NVIDIA driver were always in focus of this incidents it seems plausible that the
driver of eXtensible Host Controller can be part of the issue. wondering why this is installed anyways?
While i understand that unreproducible issues are hard to tackle at some point i think
a gigant like dell should have some ways to force the issue getting solved.
Also since they know exactly what changed from 2.3.0 to higher releases i would guess its
easier to find a solution. Also it is super weird that there is zero in the windows logs.
From the programms ive installed all are also on my laptop including nothing to obscure like
Steam Discord Python. Nothing out of the usual.
i now returned to 2.9.0 and deleted that nvidia 3.10 something device
gone to bios activated all C states again activated the Power Mode for the CPU again.
PC ran the whole night with no load and didnt hang which is a good sign.
Funny is tough that the device manager shows under firmware now 2.8.0
altough the dell update and bios say its 2.9.0 this might be because 2.8.0 was the
latest update in the windows updates as 2.9.0 hasnt landed there yet.
Also i wanted to note that the fans ONLY are loud when the machine locks up.
You can immediatly hear this. I also experienced some freezes while sitting in discord.
The screen freezes first fans kick high and audio starts to lag and then everything is frozen.
This takes around 5 seconds.
2.3.0 has decreased that issue. Now i am trying to check if 2.9.0 has no issues IF the driver for the
NVIDIA USB 3.10 eXtensible Host Controller is the culprit. Since yet i have one night without lockups.
Which is more than i previously got using 2.9.0. or 2.8.0. promising.
Thank you for the explanation how to properly delay the FW update by the PC.
I think i will continue this experiment with 2.9.0 and the deleted driver and if this works the Driver is part of the issue.
I will keep you updated how it works. Letting the PC run this week to see if the lockups are away.
Best Regards,
Vincent
ispalten
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September 9th, 2022 04:00
Hi Vincent,
First, I do NOT work for Dell, and I am a user like you, who hit the problem in Jan. with the release of BIOS V2.4.0. I will always take a BIOS update as there are security fixes and one can't be too careful.
Comments in order of your post:
Oh, one last point. Some say that even with Capsule Update turned off in BIOS it still is installed. I've seen that too, but could not confirm it happened. You will see Windows Update state in the Driver Log for Updates it did install a Dell BIOS V0.2.x.0 but I don't think it did? Even Reliability Manager will show that. However, the process Windows Update uses for Drivers is to make it happen on the next reboot. Just like if you manually installed the update via Windows. In that case of a Window install you see the BOOT screen showing the loading of the BIOS. When Windows Update does it that does not happen. I suspect that is because WU just queues it up for install on the next boot, but when it gets run the BIOS setting for Capsule Update is checked and if off it doesn't happen. ONLY true way to know,, look at the System Log in the BIOS.
Oh, I don't know what time frame is long enough to declare it fixed by doing 'X'? Time between failures is not a constant.
ark628
17 Posts
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September 9th, 2022 08:00
Hi,
didnt assumed that you work for Dell but you seem very deep dived into this topic which is quite a good thing for me.
TBH i ignored the issue the longest time since it started shortly after my Master Thesis and i had no time and the lockups are only around once every few days at that time.
Im also unsure how many days it will take but tbh i dont care i will monitor it my PC is always ON anyways. I had no lockup since i removed that NVIDIA Driver mentioned above.
Games still work without any issue as before and i had the PC Idle for two nights without lockup (previously when on 2.9.0 i had it once every around 16 hours for a week)
I of course understand that finding the solution to an issue which is almost invisible is a delicate thing as i myself also work in support. Since im not too much into hardware stuff i cannot say it for sure but i think most of the symptoms have commons.
The thing with the fans was really something i noticed. So no doubt it will increase the fans rpm(5000+) when locking up.(shouldve done videos on that)
I think ill continuously monitor it and report in the forum wheather it locks up again or not.
Of course this cannot prove the absence of the issue because its the "Halteproblem" all over again...
It would be super interesting to see what causes it. Because as different as the lockouts and freezes are they have some things in common making me belief that lots of those cases have the same root cause.
Also makes sense that the system fails before being able to write a log. Guess im tooo used that the log will show everything until you kill the PC.
Since my warranty has run out and i had not very good experiences in some cases in the past with the Support at Dell i think i pass for the exchange of the PC. Of course it would be easy to backup everything and setup a new machine, but the conditions on it are a little to annoying (of course Support at dell does only communicate the conditions and they arent to blame for it.)
Im also not too much a fan of preventing updates especially when its something so based as a Bios update. Therefore i will search if i can find a solution for the issue i now call "XPS 8940 Lockup with fans spinning 5000+RPM when idle."
Currently it seems promising but it could also be just a cluster where the error doesnt occure by sheer luck.
Best Regards,
Vincent
ark628
17 Posts
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September 11th, 2022 14:00
Still had no lockup since the last post PC running 24/7.
This seem to work
Bruno D
10 Posts
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September 11th, 2022 19:00
Hi all, just a quick post to touch base. I'm having similar lockups. Nothing much different than others here: XPS 8940, 2 x 16 GB RAM, not sure of all my other specs I'll post asap. Sorry we just had our 2nd kid, 5 months old now barely starting to get a normal life back (sleep, etc) so pardon in advance I'll try my best to stay in the loop. I also had the occasional fan whoooshing like 100,000 RPM like a hairblower But that hasn't happened for a while.
The ONE thing I might be able to contribute: I did take notes in an app of each crash instance I have (since 2 months roughly) and I just noticed that for each there is an entry in my event log. I don't know if that'll help. But it just seems to record the fact that I hard rebooted, so maybe not that useful ? I'll try to post more detailed info tomorrow!
Bruno D
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September 11th, 2022 20:00
One pattern I've noticed: the lockups often happened when resuming from sleep after a short time idle (for example went to grab a coffee, back after maybe 10-20 minutes then freezes when waking things up. Nothing works, not even mouse / keyb. Another perhaps is when switching virtual desktops (using the Win + Left or Right arrow shortcut). PC isn't running so intensely, just a bunch of browser windows + a stock trading software (uses ressources but not that much).
ark628
17 Posts
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September 11th, 2022 21:00
When you hard resett the PC (Pressing Power Button till it goes of or removing the electricity) then a log will be written in WIndows.
This also worked for me but the reason for the lockup isnt logged at all.
Seems like the only log message that went trough is the power panic. Asside from that nothing.
Also had no lockup since i deleted that driver so far. Seems like for me this driver was somehow the culprit. I will observe it a little longer and see if it has any bad effects. So far everything fine.
ispalten
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September 12th, 2022 04:00
No, that Error 41 in the event log is written during the power on/boot cycle. Windows checks a bit on the hard drive and if it is on, will know you didn't do a Shutdown, and put that entry in the log.
The cause of the lock up, assuming it is an error that can be recorded, can't be written by Windows as it is locked up and can't do a thing.
You mention you deleted a driver. If it is the USB Nvidia driver, it probably might get re-installed anyway. The only sure way to stop it to Disable it in Device Manager.
However, I suggest you discover what the driver is for, it is the Nvidia driver to allow the USB Type-C driver to work (there are 2 Nvidia drivers, one to hook into the 3.1 driver and the other for the Type-C). The Type-C allows chaining of displays.
I used the USB port on the Monitor, so I never have done anything. It is running on my XPS. I am NOW in the 4th week of no lock ups. I am on BIOS V2.9.0. I have had a lock up on it in the past. At this point of time, I feel it was the installing of the latest Nvidia Game Ready driver on 9/1, although, I did have my last lock up on V2.9.0 on 8/15, and before that on 8/12. I have NO way to explain why I do not lock up now? No changes I made, although there have been plenty of s/w installs done by Windows Update and other programs updating in the background.
It is NOT any specific Nvidia USB driver.
ark628
17 Posts
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September 12th, 2022 07:00
Im aware of that the driver COULD reinstall but tbh hadnt had the issue that the Driver is reinstalled automatically.
I also had now ONE Lockup but without the fans going over 5000 RPM.
The lockup immedialty occured when i tried to additionally charge an external device via usb.
Could be a coincidence that it locked up just after adding another USB device. I also rechecked the device hadnt to be installed as it only has USB Power and no data wiring.
Can it be that that little extra Wattage was to much? Maybe it is just a coincidence and the Lockup randomly happened...
currently it works with the device jacked in.
Still +4 days running in a row is extra ordinary. I will keep monitoring it and report if it breaks down again.
Still thinking i had those lockups daily and now the system seems much more stable makes me think this NVIDIA eXtensible Hostcontroller caused some ruckus in the system.
Seems this Driver also has had some issues on devices with batteries i.E. power drain when not disabled: https://www.reddit.com/r/ZephyrusG14/comments/kagy47/to_anyone_with_battery_problems_try_disabling/
Maybe it is the power consumption after all?
Since the eXtensible Hostcontroller seems to be a device i.E. for Debugging etc. it makes sense that disabling doesnt hurt the everyday use.
https://www.elevenforum.com/t/usb-3-0-3-1-extensible-host-controller-drivers.2331/<
Funnyli enough the Mark is set so the PC can deactivate the eXtensible Hostcontroller according to the power saving guidlines of the system. Which also would make sense because many people reported that after disabling quickstart and pushing the system to high preformance mode the lockups are reduced.
Of course this is all just fishing in the dark but maybe the driver is being disabled while something is activly using it and then some power guidelines kick in and disable the driver. This would furthermore explain why the system never failed during gaming maybe
i will disable the other eXtensible Host driver from Intel aswell.(Stupid idea. Without the eXtensible Host Driver from intel the USB Slots wont work at all. Also it reinstalled itself immediatly after rebooting in contrary to the one from NVIDIA.)I additionally now installed the newest NVIDIA Drivers.
Also the NVIDIA eXtensible Hostcontroller wasnt installed after the driver upgrade.
To be sure one could DDU the Driver and install it to see if this device has any purpose in this system or if it is accidentally preinstalled.
Best Regards,
Vincent
ark628
17 Posts
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September 12th, 2022 08:00
Since the device NVIDIA eXtensible Host is the device that controlls the left-hand USB-C port. You cannot disable it if you want to run monitor through that port but in most cases it's useless.
=> My Geforce 3060 doesnt even has this USB-C on it anymore. I think my old 2080 had this. There was a thunderbolt port on the card i never used but it seems this thing is often disabled as it is source of many issues.
ispalten
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September 12th, 2022 10:00
Exactly, it more than likely NOT find the device and you might even see that in the Event Viewer that it couldn't start?
Dell gets its RTX cards from MSI, but they don't even look like the ones MSI sells. For instance, I have the RTX2060 and it has one large fan. The one MSI sells has 2 fans. Supposedly the Dell one will draw less power as well.
On the FAQ for the 8940, Dell doesn't list any that have the Type-C USB ports either.
I've never disabled it though, and I wouldn't expect that to interfere unless I was using the USB process possibly.
I am now on V2.9.0, and I had TWO lockups on it. The day I installed it (8/12) and a few days later (8/15), but NONE since!
I can NOT explain this. I also installed on 9/1 the latest Nvidia Game Ready driver. A few Windows Updates, probably some program updates in the background by the program, and some, like Thunderbird and Firefox that I knew happened.
I know I can rule out Fast Startup, RAM Rank, C-States, RAM amount, disabling USB drivers, etc. as I've either tried all those or didn't do it.
Something HAS changed, I just don't know what.
I have gone and back-leveled the BIOS many times and in some cases gone back to what I had after back-leveling. Usually when I made a change, like replacing my DIMM's with Dual Rank DIMMs. One thing I've notices is the failure to back-level the Intel Management Engine. Maybe at one time you could, say V2.4.0 back to V2.3.0, but it appears with later Management Engines you can not. Having the BIOS code out of step with the embedded Management Engine Code in the EEPROM where both are stored could be part of the problem for some (those that go back versions). I'm also wondering if there could be a battery level that has an effect on the EEPROM when installing the BIOS or booting the XPS causing some read errors?
Whatever it is, it appears to have 'healed itself' on my XPS. Now on my 4th week without a lock up. Way longer than it has every gone after BIOS V2.4.0 or later versions. Even only a few days with the one I'm running now which makes NO SENSE to me?
I have probably jinxed it but it appears to be very stable for me now?
Whatever it is and/or why, this might explain why SOME users of Nvidia cards DO NOT have lock ups... It is SURELY BIOS related as it first appeared with V2.4.0 and going back (at that time) to V2.3.0 fixed it. Later versions were 'better' in terms it took longer to happen, but it was never it seems fixed by Dell or even clearly stated here it was a known problem by Dell.
Now I've had motherboards replaced by Dell and the problem of lock ups did not go away, so I'd think it isn't the battery either and quite possibly the EEPROM either, but it has to be something, that is for sure.
ark628
17 Posts
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September 12th, 2022 10:00
Thank you for all your insights so far.
For my current assumption is that the Driver might be installed by fault and caused a ruckus for myself.
We have to keep in mind we have at least two scenarios of Lockup.
The ones where the fans go BRRRR. => had none of them since i disabled the Driver.
And the ones where the fans DONT go BRRR => had one today and many in the past.
Could be that there are multiple issues with the XPS 8940 that lead to different lockups.
So far i think the disabling of the driver solved at least the one reason for lockups in my case as they are really less frequent. If the lockups dont increase i think i can live with around 1 lockup every 96 hours.
Fast Startup i have disabled , C-States i have enabled.
Still i will monitor it and post lockups here to gain info on the issue.
Maybe for you there was an update of Windows itself?
The eXt Drivers sometimes are distributed via Windows Update can you check if that one was recently updated? I mean the nvidia one.