Dell certified drives only with PERC H700?

Although it may conform to MOST of the SAS specification, it is not a SAS controller since it specifically blocks non-Dell drives.  It is a Dell Proprietary Controller with performance comparable (or better according to their own spin) to high perormance SAS controllers.  A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.  A Dell controller that blocks non-Dell branded (tuned) disks is not a SAS controller, even though it may conform to the SAS spec in most every way.

Just so I don't misunderstand what you are saying ... are you saying that it is your opinion, based on what you believe the SAS spec is or should be, that the Dell controller is not technically a SAS controller if it blocks non-certified drives; or are you saying that the SAS spec specifically and objectively prohibits a controller from blocking non-certified drives?  If the latter, can you show me where that can be found?  If the former, I'll respect and grant you your opinion, offering only that mine would differ.

I love how the moderator deleted another post of mine.  I love having Big Brother sponsor forums but then delete any message which casts them in a bad light under the guise of protecting proprietary or confidential information -- none of which was included in the deleted posts.  Another reason I prefer to stay with competitors' products over Dell.  There is something just too dirty in the way they deal with adversity.  An honest person has nothing to hide.

It's not bait and switch, but they should [have] disclose:emotion-46: what some (not all) of their customers need to know when purchasing a server with a particular controller.

I think the USB analogy is different too, a USB drive is a USB drive - it uses a controller attached to the drive to ensure it speaks to the OS over USB - built at the factory with a drive that will work with that controller.  With the SAS drives, you are essentially buying the controller and drive(s) separately.  Extending that, if you buy an external USB enclosure, it doesn't necessarily work with any drive - there may be some restrictions based on the enclosure's controller that will have needed to be researched beforehand.  Buying an external USB hard drive is simply buying a controller and supported drive together from the manufacturer, not unlike purchasing a controller and and supported drive(s) together with a server from Dell.

The problem is a lot bigger, remember the MD3200 is the start of a storage stack which can support 192 drives as standard and 256 (premium) with MD1200's attached. Dell have therefore simply said, forget customer loyalty through service, lets get it with a gun.

That is simply wrong.  A USB interface has a controller.  It is not a disk controller...it is a USB controller.  Intel makes these as do others.  And of course Dell could decide similarly that to get optimal performance out of that USB interface only Dell USB compliant devices may be connected.  Don't be so naive to think the analagy does not hold up.  It does completely.

In the same way, Dell could also argue that only Dell branded optical media performs reliably when written by a Dell branded optical disc drive and they could easily test for the insertion of Dell branded media before allowing writting to these discs.

You can argue all day long that something can be designed according to a OPEN standard, but at the end of the day if it does not behave according to that standard then it is not that standard.  It is based on the standard but not precisely to that standard.

Trust me ... I get it.  When Dell did this to me with the H700 controller, I spent nearly two weeks troubleshooting the issue of why my disks were not working.  Simply put, I was not told the H700 would only work with Dell brand drives and Dell support (at the time) had no knowledge that the firmware had been changed this way either.  I went round and round before someone higher up the food chain in Dell support discovered the restriction placed on the controller.  I then had to go and buy an alternative brand controller (same one Dell OEMs) without the restriction.  That was another $600.  I lost a few thousand dollars of productivity and hard cash due to their failure to disclose this information. 

Yes, your case is worse because you will always be required to buy Dell disks and the availability of these (not to mention the higher cost) will not be as prompt as other branded product is.

btw,  tshubert, the proable reason your posting was removed was because  you had the word c*cked in your posting. The automated checker will automatically delete any posting that has probable bad words. I had a posting deleted once because I typed I was not trying to be a j3rk and it deleted it.

Its official, you need to use Dell drives with the MD3200, see the reply from Dell below. I have only blanked out the guys name from Dell and Tarsus, as to give them their due they are victims of an Orwelian Engineering department. I leave this now and thanks for all the moral support guys. Let me go lick my wounds. :emotion-2:

 Hi both of you,
    
    I seem to be forced to take them. 

    Engineering's rational is ludicrous. These same drives Seagate
    Cheetah 15.7 600gGB SAS  are half the price you offering to me at
    and that's a discounted price :-) If the rest of the industry wants
    to practise tyranny, then Dell has a right too, sounds like
    convoluted logic to me. 

     If someone is going to buy an expensive solution like the 3200 they
    are not going to put garbage drives in the unit. Secondly
    certification has long been practised in the industry, ie a list of
    manufacturers  drives that are certified to work. The solution you
    are pushing is not certification its proprietary. I will of course
    let the industry know and Dell can hear what the market has to say
    about the position they have taken. I will not take a position on
    this one way or another and wait for the market to show Dell what
    they think of this latest move by Dell. If the engineers take 5
    minutes out of their day and read Dells own forum, where you tried
    this with the Perc controllers, they might want to think twice :-)

      You are turning your customers into Cows for milking, now I have a
    simple rule here in my company and  that is,  treat the customer the
    way you would want to be treated. So ask yourself do you like to be
    a cow that someone can milk while they hold a gun to your head (its
    called rape), or a cow that needs seducing to part with their milk.
    (called convincing your customer by giving them choices)  

    I leave you to answer that question.   

    O.xxx please send me an invoice for the drives, plus two spares, 
    you have your first victim customer, or is that a cow?
   
    So moo to you all, may the blue bird of happiness bring you more
    cows, may they be less angry than me, and maybe they will like their
    udders being stroked by violent means, I certainly don't.

    Take care

    Bob

Re
changing the firmware I have been in touch with the Dell engineering
team in this regard. The decision to set the firmware to work with
particular drives was based on historical issues with low end SAS
desktop drives being installed in the storage units which caused
multiple issues.

It was decided that the best way to prevent this was to ensure that only
relevant drives that would be up to the task of running in an enterprise
environment work in the units. I have also been assured that this is
the was most of similar products from all vendors are set to work and
this is not up for review and as such will remain as it is.

Regarding your missing solution 4 it was to receive an offer of a discount on working drives.

Regards

Dxxxx

 Hi Dxxx

Finally
got a phone call from Tarsus, and they want to make me an offer on
discounted drives. Before too many people get their fingers in this
mess, we discussed 4 solutions. I have copied the person on this mail. I
think his name is Othella.

Solution 1. Take the unit back.
Solution 2. Fix the firmware to make it compliant with SAS open standards
Solution
3.  Take unit back and supply alternative solution that allows me to
build a storage stack, with a choice of using your drives or my drives.
One wonders why this is not the best solution on the MD3200 ie  convince
me why to buy your drives don't hold a gun to my head.
Solution 4. Cant remember this one perhaps you can.

Please advise how you wish to proceed.

Have a beautiful day

Bob


Bob,             
Thanks for taking my call a few moments ago. As advised I am the
assigned Technical Account Manager on this case. The role of the TAM is
to act as a point of escalation on all Dell Prosupport cases. I will be
investigating your feedback and looking to advise on a way forward to
resolve your issue.

Regards

Dxxx

Technical Account Manager

As far as I know EMC, HP, SUN, Fujitsu and IBM SANs also use this practice of locking down their SANs to only allow drives that have the SAN manufacturer's firmware on it.

For the raid controller (PERC H700 that this thread originally was started for) it was really strange that Dell locked it down, but for SAN arrays it seems to be industry standard practice.

Only systems like Drobo, Qnap and Synology (considered entry level SANs) seem to be open to retail drives (and they maintain a list of drives they have validated and will support).

Go to Experts-Exchange and pose the question there.  One of the "experts" is an independent drive and controller programmer/recovery specialist and can tell you what software you need to be able to view the disk firmware settings, so you can compare the firmware on certified and non-certified drives  (and controller settings, if such software is freely available, to be able to see the potential disparity between drive and controller programming).  He could also give you as detailed information as you desire on the why's and how's of varying drives and firmware.

You win :emotion-1:

I don't need to go any where. I bought a system that I thought was open and it was confirmed as such. I found out later that, that was a lie. It took a lot of energy and whole lot of useless anger to get an answer. I will buy the 192 drives from Dell. You don't have to worry about me anymore, the damage is done. You need to worry about the next customer. So inform them when purchasing, that the product only supports proprietary drives, make it clear up front. I your humble servant will hold my tongue and plague you no longer. I have been suitably chastised and am out of steam.

Now lets all chill and learn the lessons of keeping your customers informed, if customers want to know why they have to buy your drives have the documentation ready to justify it. Dont ask them to go research something you should have on file.  I hold no grudges, just shake my head.

I quite, don't like fighting at the best of times.

So lets all have a beautiful day and remember we are nothing if it we have no customers, I  have learned much from this excercise, and it will benefit my own company, as I will be instigating research into all our products to make sure my customers never feel trapped between a rock and a hard place, and if they do we must make sure that the reasons are clearly documented as to why it is. Not simply because the rest of the industry does it.

Have fun and dance today the world is a fantastic place if you remember who pays the bills..Your customer :emotion-1: and its not his wallet that determines the relationship, but simply because he stopped by, should be enough.

Take it easy

Bob