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XPS 15 9550, Thunderbolt NVM firmware issue with Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter
Because I didn't liked USB 3.0 ethernet chipsets and USB-based ethernet cannot bear some network-intensive tasks, I wanted to use PCIe-based Thunderbolt ethernet controller on my XPS 15 9550. As there is no Thunderbolt 3 "PCIe" ethernet adapter (except docks), I chose to buy Apple Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter and Thunderbolt 2-based ethernet adapter.
I plugged it into the XPS 15 9550 (tested with BIOS 1.1.19, 1.2.14, 1.2.16 and latest Thunderbolt firmware with NVM version 16), and the PCIe device did not pop up. Instead, only USB billboard device is appearing saying that "Alternate Mode configuration not attempted". Both Windows 10 and Ubuntu 16.10 failed to detect the device. I moved this configuration to MSI GS63 laptop, and it detected ethernet controller successfully (that laptop utilizing NVM firmware version 18).
It seems that other vendors are affected with lower NVM firmware version involving setup with Thunderbolt adapter: see the case of Lenovo too. Do you have planned Thunderbolt NVM firmware update for XPS 15 9550? Looks like XPS 13 9360 is using newer Thunderbolt NVM firmware version, though.
jeverett_syl
8 Posts
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April 17th, 2017 16:00
I bought one of the "Cable Matters Thunderbolt 3 (20 Gbps) USB-C Cable in Black 6.6 Feet / 2m" cables off Amazon for around $30 for the TB3 built-in 10GE networking function. It's a passive cable so at 6' it only goes 20 Gpbs, rather than 40 Gpbs, but the 6' is good for networking to my desktop system (on the floor), and since it's a passive cable it doubles as a USB 3.1 Gen 2 cable (which the active cables don't.) If you want the 40 Gbps capability, and don't need 6' length, you might try the "StarTech.com 0.5m Thunderbolt 3 (40Gbps) USB C Cable" off NewEgg -- it's only around $20 and also doubles as USB 3.1 Gen 2. (I've been able to use both of these cables with an M.2 SATA to USB 3.1 Gen 2 drive enclosure to get full SSD speeds, ~500Mbps data transfers, over the TB3 port on the 9550 -- it's about the only no hassle functionality I've gotten out of the TB3 port AND it's only USB.)
However, the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter works perfectly with my Windows 10 Intel NUC6i7KYK with Thunderbolt 3 -- so it's not a Apple compatibility with the Windows world problem, it's just a Dell compatibility problem!
My thought was that they would pass on one Display Port channel and the PCIe channel, at least x2 of it -- but it looks like none of the adapters pass the Display Port, just the PCIe/Thunderbolt part -- which means if your legacy TB2 chain terminated in your Display Port monitor, to get the same functionality, you'll need a TB3 device with a Display Port out which can then daisy-chain to the TB3-TB2 adapter (assuming the adapters actually work in a daisy-chain rather then only just connected to the computer TB3 port.) It really is amazing how little technical information there is about Thunderbolt 3 -- from anywhere, either Intel or OEMs -- to be able to engineer these connections without some disappointment.
I did get the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter working with the Intel NUC connected to an "AKiTiO Thunder2 Dock" working fine even thought that dock was designed for the Mac and not Windows certified. But, my original goal was to be able to bring home my work XPS 15 9550 and use the adapter to plug it into my home Mac's Thunderbolt chain, which already had Ethernet, sound, external drives, keyboard, mouse, etc.
I was about to give up on the Apple adapter and go for one of the others, but if those don't work either I am really going to regret my Dell purchase, as the XPS 15 9550's Thunderbolt 3 (supposed) functionality was the main reason I switched to the Dell instead of getting a newer Mac.
I'm definitely getting smarter about Dell given this experience. It's quite the thing to be on the Intel communities board and hear nothing but "your system manufacturer will help you" and come here, and to even premium support, where you instead find out, "nope, you're just SoL!"
salanglo
7 Posts
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April 17th, 2017 16:00
OK, so Dell says that they won't support TB3 with an Apple device. What about their own devices? I have a TB16 that's suppose to work with the XPS 15 9550. However when I tried to call for support on the TB16 Dell wouldn't even talk to me because my XPS 15 was no longer under warranty! Has anybody got the TB16 to actually work with an XPS 15 9550 and if so how? Sorry - not trying to hijack your thread but just venting about Dell's lack of TB3 support on the XPS 15 9550.
Wavetrain
7 Posts
0
April 18th, 2017 00:00
Ok, found TB3 cable this morning. No connection between XPS and either of the two ZBooks.. instant connection between two ZBooks. Lame. However, I never used Ethernet connection between 2 computers before, hence I don't know what is the benefit and what was I supposed to see/do. But yea, they popped up on ZBooks port 2 instantly. XPS on the other hand went full Stevie Wonder on connection.
jeverett_syl
8 Posts
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April 18th, 2017 08:00
jeverett_syl
8 Posts
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April 18th, 2017 15:00
Well, I retested and the Asus worked. Here's the TB2 AKiTiO dock hanging off the Apple adapter connected to the Asus ThunderboltEX 3 (and the Thunderbolt 3 firmware/driver details for the Asus system):
So, the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter works fine on the Intel NUC6i7KYK with NVM 18 (and PD 1.07), and it works fine on the Asus ThunderboltEX 3 with NVM 16 (and PD 1.07).
However, it still doesn't work on the Dell XPS 15 9550 with NVM 16 (and PD 1.02.06).
I guess NVM 16 isn't the critical problem; maybe PD < 1.07 is.
I wonder if a PD firmware upgrade (to 1.07) could fix the Dell XPS 15 9550 incompatibility, or if that lag in firmware version reflects a lack in hardware/chipset that can't be fixed -- and if Dell simply isn't coming forward with the acknowledgement that the Thunderbolt 3 hardware they designed and sold with the XPS 15 9550, unlike every other hardware I've tested so far, isn't compatible with other Thunderbolt 3 devices.
FWIW, when I plug the Thunderbolt chain (of Apple TB3-TB2 adapter and AKiTiO Thunder Dock 2) into the Dell XPS 15 9550, I get this error:
which when clicked, links to this page:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt628692(v=vs.85).aspx#_5
which offers the "possible cause" of:
And again, the exact same Thunderbolt hardware/combo works fine on my two other WIndows 10 Thunderbolt 3 systems, namely:
the Intel NUC6i7KYK
and
an Asus ThunderboltEX 3 in an Asus Sabertooth X99 motherboard.
Wavetrain
7 Posts
0
April 18th, 2017 22:00
FWIW so far.. NVM version has nothing to do with it. I have two HP ZBook laptops with different NVM versions and everything is just plug and play. PD version perhaps, but at the same time PD versions depends of the HARDWARE version. PD firmware on 1575 is 1.02.06 where PD firmware on 1577 is 1.07.03 That being said, maybe we are chasing ghosts, maybe 1575 cannot deliver the powers of 1577? If that is the case, I just need to know so I can move on and sell what I can. Its killing my workflow and productivity. And I am DYING to find out what devices actually do work with 1575 PD 1.02.06 if any.
jeverett_syl
8 Posts
0
April 19th, 2017 07:00
Keep in mind that my Intel NUC6i7KYK is also 1575, but it has PD 1.07.03, unlike the XPS 15 9550, which has only 1.02.06:
Although I don't have exact details from what I can gather I think that Thunderbolt 3 hardware design is something like this:
described here: ark.intel.com/.../Alpine-Ridge
described here: https://ark.intel.com/products/78941/Intel-DSL5110-Thunderbolt-Controller
described here: http://www.ti.com/product/TPS65982
Described here: http://www.ti.com/product/TPS65983
I think maybe (given the outputs from HWiNFO64) that the XPS 15 9550 and the NUC6i7KYK are made with the DSL5110 chip, where as my Asus ThunderboltEX 3 is made with a DSL6540. The DSL5110 is what seems to show up as "(1575)" while the DSL6540/DSL6340 show up as "(1577)".
However, while the XPS 15 9550 and the NUC6i7KYK both appear to have the same core Thunderbolt DSL5110 / 1575 chip, given the different PD firmware (and assuming that firmware is tied to hardware differences), it looks like Dell put in an older TI TPS65982 PD chip in the XPS 15 9550, rather than a newer TI TPS65983 PD chip, like Intel put into the NUC6i7KYK and perhaps HP put into your laptops.
I think this older TI TPS65982 PD chip might be the one causing the compatibility problems, as indeed this is the problem identified by other vendors who have acknowledged problems with their hardware, such as Pluggable and AKiTiO:
https://www.akitio.com/blog/articles/akitio-thunderbolt3-devices-macbook-pro
http://plugable.com/thunderbolt-3
If this is indeed the problem, it would be nice if Dell would admit and explain the problem, and offer some sort of trade-in to newer hardware that has corrected this compatibility problem -- especially since this compatibility problem seems to be one that just about every other vendor (Intel, Asus, HP, etc.) seem to have been able to avoid. If Dell made the wrong design choice here, they should own up to it and offer a fix for it.
fisherwei
1 Message
0
July 22nd, 2017 00:00
after 3 months, the problem is still.
I tested on my XPS 9350(13 inch) by
very unhappy.
karatekid430
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September 13th, 2017 00:00
Also you can install 17.1.64.250 drivers - they are not even mentioned on Intel's website, but just download them from elsewhere and check their digital signatures from Intel and WHQL. I did it on my XPS 9365 - it does not change the fact that Dell has left this model on NVM 9, but it works, and I use Gigabyte Aorus eGPU with AMD R9 Nano installed. Works perfectly despite the software claiming it is not supported. As perfectly as something can work on a 4.5W CPU that is further crippled by Dell.
karatekid430
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September 13th, 2017 00:00
Guys, Skylake has a maximum NVM version of 16. Kaby Lake is required for anything higher. Afaik.