need_advice,

- 1. Processors are available with 400 and 533 MHz bus speeds but RAM memory frequency is 400 MHz or less. Is there a correlation between the two? Is
there any advantage to bus speeds higher than memory frequencies? You will find a brief discussion of the roles of bus speed and RAM speed here.
-
2. I am expecting to purchase 512 MB RAM figuring this will extend the useful life of the machine primarily to accommodate program upgrades over the
- next 5 years and secondarily to improve performance. Does it make sense to increase memory any higher than this? That depends on what you use your computer for. If you are getting an XP machine, it can utilize all the RAM you install but unless you are doing memory-intensive tasks such as 3-D rendering you will not see much performance improvement with more than 512MB RAM, which is sufficient to allow an XP system to perform quite briskly.
-
- 3. Video cards are available with 64 or 128 MB RAM but I am not sure whether the higher is worth the money. Will increasing the memory RAM to 512 MB essentially accomplish the same thing? It does so for substantially less $/MB.
System RAM will help with video performance but is often slower than video RAM. This will not make a difference unless you are a dedicated gamer, where the more video RAM you have the better off you are in terms of game performance. For mainstream use (word processing, spreadsheets, graphics) 64MB video RAM will be more than sufficient.

The above is personal opinion, and I suspect you will receive additional input which will disagree with it.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support Java.

Are you a new computer owner, or simply new to Delltalk? You may find some helpful information on how best to use this forum here. Want to make a hyperlink in your post, want to add a graphic or sound file, need to troubleshoot a non-working Java applet, want to build an attractive signature? These capabilities can be yours if you visit Denny's DellT@lk Tutorials. For help in deciding what can be eliminated from your Startup list, take a look here. Want to get rid of Network Neighborhood, change your Registered Owner name? Check out the little utilities at Delltalk Tweekz. Ready to sign up for Web server space? Want to learn FTP? Visit Web Presence for Beginners. For new users (or veterans who would like to help a new user), a number of basic Windows tasks are illustrated in Denny's Tutorial Viewlets. Note: I do not answer Instant Messages but I do answer email.

Denny did a good job of covering the bases, I suggest you go with the 533 Mhz bus. This will make you system more upgradeable and faster than the 400 Mhz bus. Right now I think the 2.26G 533Mhz is the best buy for the money in the P4 line. In the near future this may change when Intel releases faster chips, the 2.4G 533Mhz and the 2.53G should drop in price.

need_advice wrote:
- I am looking to purchase a Dimension 8200 desktop
- and have questions on hardware. I'd like your
- opinions on the following:

Some of this is opinion, some fact. I'll try to keep the two separate.
-
- 1. Processors are available with 400 and 533 MHz
- bus speeds but RAM memory frequency is 400 MHz or
- less. Is there a correlation between the two? Is
- there any advantage to bus speeds higher than memory
- frequencies?

533 will be a faster system. The reasons are technical and not fully addressed in the urls you've been given. Start at Google and do searches on memory, bus architecture, RAMBUS and other words that occur to you and you'll learn a lot about how a typical system works.
-
- 2. I am expecting to purchase 512 MB RAM figuring
- this will extend the useful life of the machine
- primarily to accommodate program upgrades over the
- next 5 years and secondarily to improve performance.
- Does it make sense to increase memory any higher
- than this?

The answer to this is related to the expected life of your system, your computing habits, and future trends that are hard to predict. About 10 years ago Bill Gates said that Windows systems would never need more than 16M of RAM. IBM made an analogous misjudgment in the 1960's and early 1970's when they constructed their mainframe systems so they could not use more than 16M. It seemed to make sense at the time--16M would probably have cost several hundred million dollars.

The lesson is: We generally need more and more RAM as time passes, and experts have consistently underestimated how quickly we have needed it. This suggests installing as much as you can afford. An alternative I once found attractive was to get enough for now and increase it later when memory would probably be cheaper. However, for the system you are considering there's a flaw in that strategy. It uses RAMBUS technology which most people think is dying. In fact, if you try to find an upgrade for the Dimension 8200 at Crucial, you will discover they don't carry it and explain why: There is relatively little demand for RAMBUS and it's expensive compared to other kinds of memory and probably the future lies with new memory technologies which are currently coming on-line. You can get RAMBUS at Kingston, but it costs about the same Dell charges.

It appears, then, that RAMBUS memory will be harder to get in the future, and therefore probably more, not less, expensive than it is now.

These considerations prompted me to get a GIG of ram, and I thought seriously about 2G.

Your system will do fine with 512M, but other things being equal, it will be useful to you longer if you get 1G, if past trends are any indication. If you must choose between 256 and 512, my own opinion (not fact) is that most people will be happier in the long run if they buy the 512--if the past is any guide to the future.
-
- 3. Video cards are available with 64 or 128 MB RAM
- but I am not sure whether the higher is worth the
- money. Will increasing the memory RAM to 512 MB
- essentially accomplish the same thing? It does so
- for substantially less $/MB.

No, the two kinds of memory are different and used for Video in different ways. So 512 MB Ram will not be the same as 128MB Video Ram. Video cards do their processing on data stored in their internal RAM. This data is typical read in "gulps" from ordinary RAM. An application uses ordinary RAM to create its images, and the video-cpu interface moves this to the video card in chunks. If you use an application that creates huge or very detailed images, this uses a lot of ordinary RAM. For such apps, more ordinary RAM will speed things up because otherwise Windows may have to swap out some of the images to a disk paging file. So the app then slows down to the speed of a hard disk, which is roughly a million times slower than the fastest RAM. Thus ordinary RAM will help your speed if you use apps that create many, large, or detailed images. Otherwise it won't make much difference.

The RAM on the video card is different. The more RAM on the Video card, the fewer chunks have to be copied into it from ordinary RAM.Video cards do very sophisticated processing, and that processing goes much faster if much or most of an image can be in Video Ram at once. This is why newer video cards with new special effects that are useful to gamers--this is why the newer video cards typically also have more RAM--because the processing they're doing is more complex.

Unless you are using applications that use those special effects extensively, some games and some video apps, more RAM on the Video card isn't going to help so much. I myself don't, and am quite content with an old 16M (!!) video card for simple things like watching a DVD movie or browsing the net. If I were in to the latest and best games, I might well want the latest and greatest 128M card.

-
- Your thoughts are appreciated.
-
It's basically a tradeoff between money, your goals, and unforeseaable future trends. If it helps any, I myself am never quite sure I've made the tradeoffs wisely.

Good luck.

Larry Mayhew

Thanks to all for your input. You confirmed my basic understanding of the issues. What I find interesting though, is Larry's observation that RAMBUS demand may affect its future availability and cost so it may not be the way to go. I'll look into this as he suggested. Perhaps a Dimension 4500 is the way to go. Thanks again.

Hi, there,
Does anyone think that when the PC1066 goes into wide spread production, the price of the PC800 will drop? I was thinking that might be a good time to get 2gig. I have 1gig now. Going from 1 to 2 is really expensive and maybe excessive now.
What do you all think?
Jane

I'm no future's market expert. Memory price depends on supply and demand (and the inherent cost of the technology). The demand for PC800 will presumably start down after PC1066 comes on line. But so will its supply. So your question really boils down to: How will the remainder market behave when Dell (and others) stop using PC800? Price could go up if we all leap for more PC800 at that point, but if only a few are tempted to upgrade it will drop. Most memory and cpu remainders have dropped.

One thing to consider, though is this: If the price drops and you buy, how much will you buy? If your motherboard is currently populated with 4x256 RIMM, you will have to pull it all out and buy a full 2G. Will you sell the old 1G at auction? But with the price dropping you won't get nearly what you paid for it.

Here are some actual prices for what they're worth (not much!). Crucial apparently won't sell it to you at any price. Kingston now has PC1066 256M RIMMs for alienware that are 30% less than comparable RIMMs for Dell PC800. That isn't encouraging, but I grant it's not an apples and apples comparison. I found a supplier through Google earlier this morning (one I've never heard of) that claimed to have Dell 8200-compatible PC800 RIMMs for about $600 per Gig using 512M RIMMs. I suppose one approach would be to buy two Gigs of that and auction off the 4 256M RIMMs. But how much of a market is there for used 256M PC800 Dell-compatible RIMMs? The only people I can think of for whom it would be a bargain are those who have 512M as 2x256M and 2 open RIMMs. It would help to know how Dell configures such systems. Does it use 4x128M RIMMs?

OK--I grant you, that's a longwinded way of saying: I don't know. :-)

Regards,
Larry Mayhew


-Friendlyname- wrote:
- Hi, there,
- Does anyone think that when the PC1066 goes into
- wide spread production, the price of the PC800 will
- drop? I was thinking that might be a good time to
- get 2gig. I have 1gig now. Going from 1 to 2 is
- really expensive and maybe excessive now.
- What do you all think?
- Jane
-
-

I've always found that "obsolete" memory devices are more expensive than current production, at least when a technology change is involved. When there isn't, they might be cheaper for a while.

Systems with half a gig come with only one pair of devices, so good candidate for upgrades. Because of the high price of half gig parts, the 8200's I've seen advertised with one gig use all four slots.

But the most important consideration before doing any of this is "is it needed". I'd expect there are very few people who actually have a use for 2GB of memory. I've always considered myself atypical in that I run an application that needs more than 256MB, so I have 512MB at work and home. But if I stay away from that one app, 256MB is just fine.



Dimension 8200, 2.2GHz, 512MB, 80+60GB, Philips DVD+RW, 1702FP, SB Live! 1024, WinXP Pro (Home system)
Dimension 4300S, 1.6GHz, 384MB, 40GB, 16x10x40x CDRW, 1702FP, motherboard sound, WinXP Home. (Wife's system)
Inspiron 8200, 1.6GHz, 256MB, 30GB, WiFi, DVD, SXGA, WinXP Home. (portable)
Dimension 4100, 1GHz, 256MB, 40GB, 12x8x32x CDRW, integrated sound, Win2K (Fathers system I maintain)
Homebrew, 1GHz, 512MB, 30GB, 12x8x32x CDRW, 14/32x CDROM, integrated sound, Win2K.(Work system)
(other monitors 19-21" CRT, 100BaseT networking, mundane video cards
and speakers, Microsoft&Logitech wheel mice, Northgate Omnikey and
Dell keyboards)

Based on your obversations and analysis, it pays to keep the 1 gig, then, for the life of the computer. btw, I tried very hard to get them in 512 chunks, but they are so much more expensive than two 256s, Dell wouldn't budge.
Actually, with 2.53 ghz and 1 gig ram, this computer was made to not have to upgrade for a very long time, if ever.
Thanks for the great info.!
Jane