Grainy/sparkling LCD

Question

There’s been a lot of talk around LCDs lately, specifically a phenomenon where the screen takes on a “grainy” or “glinting” appearance. This has been seen across all LCD panels including both notebook displays and desktop monitors and is not specific to any one brand of LCD or computer. Moreover, this is not a manufacturing defect; it is inherent to the way LCDs are designed.

If you know how LCDs are manufactured this phenomenon can be explained in the diffusion process. “Glossy” finished screens undergo a lower level of diffusion than the traditional “Anti Glare” or matte finish LCDs. The lower diffusion on glossy LCDs yields an increase in backlight luminance, which results in a brighter and sharper image without severely reducing battery life. The trade off is what appears to be a glinting or sparkling effect on the LCD, but results in a sharper and brighter image.

For those who are less familiar with the LCD manufacturing process just think of two plain sheets of printer paper, one behind the other, being held up to the sun. (Don’t try this at home) You would see illumination through the papers, but not the direct sunlight. This is because the paper, like an Anti Glare LCD, is acting as a diffuser, scattering the light before it reaches your eye. Now, if you were to take a needle and poke a hole in one of the papers, stack them on top of each other and then hold them up to the light again, you would see a “glinting” effect where the hole was punched because there is one less layer of paper to diffuse the light. The glossy LCDs work in a similar way except it’s a much more intricate piece of paper, much smaller holes, and, unlike the sun, you won’t be blinded by the backlight.

Because this “glint” is inherent to the LCD design accurate methods for measuring it weren’t available until recently. Although not a defect, our customer feedback and concern around this phenomenon has led Dell to acquire a unique, first of its kind method for measuring the “glint” and is in the process of implementing it into our product design cycle. Once the testing is finalized we believe we will have accurate and reproducible specifications that we can implement in our products.

It is important to note that some customers will prefer different types of LCDs based on what the computer is used for. The glossy LCDs provide a brighter screen, higher contrast and a sharper image for watching video and DVD’s. The traditional Anti Glare LCDs are better suited for editing documents, web surfing, and overall normal computer use.

Mike

Message Edited by DELL-Michael B on 09-26-2007 07:36 AM

marco_78 · Answer

Sorry, but I think you're wrong. At least if we talk about the same topic (grainy screens). According to user reports in many forums almost every Dell Vostro, using a 15,4 1440x900 display from AUO, has issues with grainyness. Getting it replaced by a LG Philips displays usually solves the problems. People who have the LG Philips display never expierence these problems (as far as I know).

CoreyRegan · Answer

The grainy screen problem is exactly what it sounds like, grainy or greasy screens. Here is an excellent post with many pictures depicting the issue: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=154196 It seems to be effecting 15' wxga+ monitors produced by SEC (Samsung) & AUO LCDs (according to the long thread here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=167789 and other sites easily accessible). The LG LCDs don't appear to be effected, as many customers have been demanding for them as replacements. Your post seems to apply to people who haven't previously owned an LCD with TrueLife technology.

n19htmare · Answer

Wow Michael, that's a lot of fancy talk but not ONE BIT of accurate information. So let me ask again. PLEASE explain to me why an AUO WXGA+ panel can have the grain and not an LG WXGA+. Both are the same resolution, same size, and both are GLOSSY. Facts are plain and simple. The grainy screen is a defect. How come the WXGA Glossy screen don't have this issue? They go through the same 'process' don't they? Don't the LG's go through the same 'process'. It's one thing when every single glossy screen is the same.... then there are no abnormalities to set them apart from the 'defects'. But the fact is that there are Grainy screens which is NOT NORMAL regardless of what 'excuse' you come up with. I think I speak for everyone out there when I say that give us an accurate response as to why you can have a Grainy AUO vs. a perfect non-grainy LG? If you can explain this phenomenon, we would all shut up and enjoy our laptops. Thank you, I eagerly wait your response.

Mike B1 · Answer

I appreciate the feedback and comments, but this is fully accurate. EVERY LCD has this phenomenon to some degree, and yes, it is more apparent in some screens then others, but regardless of who made the screen or what type it is, the glint is there. You're arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with so let me reiterate the important part of my previous post to highlight what you may have missed. ' our customer feedback and concern around this phenomenon has led Dell to acquire a unique, first of its kind method for measuring the 'glint' and is in the process of implementing it into our product design cycle. Once the testing is finalized we believe we will have accurate and reproducible specifications that we can implement in our products.' Dell has heard the feedback from our customers and we've acted on that feedback to try and keep this issue from popping up again. If you're unhappy with the screen contact support and see what can be done.   As for explaining the phenomenon, I already have, in both technical and non technical terms. I posted an explanation of what you're seeing and why, not an 'excuse.'   So, why can you have a 'grainy' AUO vs. a 'perfect' non-'grainy' LG... as I said before, ' Because this 'glint' is inherent to the LCD design accurate methods for measuring it weren't available until recently.' With no accurate methods to measure this meant varying degrees of the glint/grain depending on the build. We're working to get this taken care of and I hope this helps give the explanation you were looking for.   Mike

n19htmare · Answer

Accurate way of measuring the glint aka the graininess? I don't know but I used my eyes and it was VERY VERY apparent that the AUO panels had MUCH MUCH more glint then the LG. In other words, the LG did a much better job manufacturing the LCD then AUO. I noticed you said to some degree all LCDs have this, Which is true because some LCDs are more grainy then others and some might have this effect but appear to be fine. So at what point is it acceptable? I think if a naked eye can spot it, its not acceptable. I cannot spot any of the glint on my WXGA screen, im sure its there but i can't see it which to me and everyone else is fine. But, When it's apparent to the naked eye, that causes a problem.

You very well know that Dell would not have taken any steps if it was a few cases but the issue is WELL SPREAD enough that you guys have to come up with a whole new way of measuring this phenomenon. This leads me to believe that there is a problem.

All I'm trying to get out of Dell is for them to admit that yes, there is a problem with some Panels which may cause a grainy/greasy line coating on the LCD panel. But instead you guys are countering by lecturing us on the process of TrueLife and I see that as an excuse. If it was not a defect/problem, why would you be bending over backward to implement a method in your product design cycle to overcome this issue. Obviously even Dell sees it as a problem, it's not gonna kill you to admit it. After going through countless replacements/repairs i gave up and opted for a lower resolutions WXGA screen :(. It was the only safe bet I could make.

Message Edited by n19htmare on 10-02-2007 11:02 AM

lambchops468 · Answer

Michael B, to settle this, please provide us with some sort of article or news source announcing the new process, and provide the source (with link)

n19htmare · Answer

Michael B will avoid this thread at all cost now. Simply because he cannot explain why two of the same screens will have different 'glint' properties.

lambchops468 · Answer

lol... i wish they would do a recall or something but that won't happen -- doesn't quailfy for recalling. apple got sued over grainy screens...

Mike B1 · Answer

N19htmare,   My apologies for taking so long to reply, but this forum is not, and has not been, my primary role here at Dell. A new full time moderator has been added who will be here to assist you more often. To answer your question 'why two of the same screens will have different 'glint' properties' is an easy one, no manufactured LCD is identical. Although they may appear to be to the same to the naked eye, there are subtle differences that can make a difference in the look and feel of the finished product.   Also, I don't really know how to take your comment 'You very well know that Dell would not have taken any steps if it was a few cases but the issue is WELL SPREAD enough that you guys have to come up with a whole new way of measuring this phenomenon.' Of course we'll take action when our customers have a complaint, what else would you expect? We're not saying that all of the systems we produce are perfect. I think you've taken this explanation of the 'glint' and tried to apply it to every problem seen in an LCD. This topic is specifically about the glint/sparkle phenomenon, nothing more.   lambchops468,   The process is an industry first and still being finalized and implemented into our production cycle so unfortunately there is no where I can point you, link wise, right now. When more information becomes available and the process is finalized we will share more with you.     Mike

n19htmare · Answer

Hello again Michael,

I received my vostro 1400 today because I really wanted to give Dell another shot. But I am utterly disappointed. The screens Dell is using are UTTER GARBAGE! I am not just saying that but I have proof. I compared it to my HP dv2500t notebook that I got last week. I will post the links below.

As you can see, the Dell screen lacks the definition and has practically no "white" properties what so ever. It is also grainy. I do not mean to embarrass Dell but this is beyond belief.

http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP1.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP2.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP3.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP4.JPG

Please take a look and pass them on to who ever that needs to see them. I'm sure you will be surprised at that LACK of quality that Dell is putting in their screens.

Message Edited by n19htmare on 10-08-2007 11:57 PM

n19htmare · Answer

I received my vostro 1400 today because I really wanted to give Dell another shot. But I am utterly disappointed. The screens Dell is using are UTTER GARBAGE! I am not just saying that but I have proof. I compared it to my HP dv2500t notebook that I got last week. I will post the links below. As you can see, the Dell screen lacks the definition and has practically no "white" properties what so ever. It is also grainy. I do not mean to embarrass Dell but this is beyond belief.

HP is on the left, the Dell is on the right in the last 3 pics. The first pic is self explanatory.

http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP1.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP2.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP3.JPG
http://n19htmare.com/DELLHP4.JPG

Please take a look and pass them on to who ever that needs to see them. I'm sure you will be surprised at that LACK of quality that Dell is putting in their screens.

Message Edited by n19htmare on 10-08-2007 03:39 PM

Message Edited by n19htmare on 10-08-2007 03:40 PM

mpedris · Answer

n19htmare,   Which resolution is the Dell screen? Is it 1280x800?   Thanks.

n19htmare · Answer

yes. Both screens are 14.1' WXGA which are 1280x800 resolution. I'm sick of Dell trying to deny that there is an LCD issue. Message Edited by n19htmare on 10-08-2007 11:56 PM

Devedander · Answer

I am sorry Michael but I have to say from personal experience and empirical evidence that you are completely incorrect in your assessment of the situation.

I have had 4 total Vostro 1400 systems in my hands (3 replacements for 1 original purchase) and the first 3 all had varying degrees of glint/sparkle/sand/oilyness that
were simply unacceptable.

The worst literally looked like you poured some olive oil on the screen then sprinkled a think coating of sand over it leading to brownish spots all over the screen and a general dirty look that made the screen impossible to view without eyestrain for any period of time.

the following 2 replacements both had less "sand" appearance but the sparkle/glint was pronounced and simply unacceptable to anyone who would have to look at the screen for more than 15 minutes at a time.

Bear in mind my line of work puts me in contact with several LCD screens on a daily basis (I support desktop systems at a multicampus location with over 1200 computers and laptops and touch a dozen on any given day) and I also do house calls and have hands on experience with many brands and makes of laptops. On top of this while I had these grainy/glinty/whatever Vostros in hand I went to several stores to check with my own eyes direct comparison against live machines on display.

Out of roughly 50 display models of varying brands, screen sizes and prices only 2 had a similar screen problem. The rest were literally shockingly creamy and smooth to view in comparison. I am not exaggerating. It's like driving with a horrendously dirty windshield for months, then washing it sparkly clean inside and out the difference you would see.

The fact that my 4th Vostro actually has a very nice, absolutely no grain, no sparkle, no glint finish which is not just steps better than, but completely worlds different from the ones which did have glint and or glare says that it is not just a part of the technology, but rather a question of how well the finish is applied or some other factor. It is DEFINITELY possible to get the screen to NOT have this issue, it just seems a VAST majority of the screens do have this issue.

I would like to point out also that the maker of the screen is AUO, my first AUO panel (I had 2 LG and 2 AUO) along with my LG panels displayed the varying degrees of visual problems, the last AUO displays NO graininess. So again it cannot be the technology in use because the same part number, same Device ID from the same vendor does not display the same problem as the other one.

It has come to my attention that many people are trying to show this effect by taking pictures of it, however it is something that is almost impossible to capture on camera due to the fact that a back lit display will difuse detail when shot with almost any camera, not to mention even high end digital cameras with great optics will have trouble picking up the level of detail necessary under the circumstances.

Also the effect is much more pronounced when views in stereo as the sparkle/grain effect is slightly different for each eye thus making it MUCH more noticeable.

As such this is an example of what the effect looks like

http://forum.notebookreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10562&d=1190071513

Note it's not a photo, it's an digitally edited picture to represent the issue at hand but isn't a 100% accurate reproduction.

Ironically if you view this on a screen that suffers from grain or sparkle the difference can be rendered undetectable due to the grain/sparkle of your screen.

Message Edited by Devedander on 10-15-2007 06:23 PM

relikwie · Answer

Hi, I have received a brand new D830 today and yes the WSXGA+ screen dissapointed me big time. The rest of the machine is perfectly fine. I have an old Precision M60 with WSXGA+ and comparing this to the M60, the M60 is so much more crisp, sharper and clearer. The D830 seems is grainy, fuzzy and looks like an LCD from a laptop right out the 1999 years. I don't mind light leakage and brightness problems, but as used as I am to the M60 the graininess of the D830 annoys me too much. Can I let Dell replace the screen? Regards.

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Grainy/sparkling LCD

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