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me77

5 Posts

59199

January 10th, 2005 19:00

More 2005FPW problems...

I got my 2005FPW in December, and like many others it had really bad backlight problems that I noticed immediately, but there were two other probles that I noticed near the eft edge of the screen over the new few days. First, there was a fading of the colors, and second, there was what appeared to be a long delay for images to disappear from the screen (I know it's not related, but it looks like the "burn in" that happens with old CRTs).

I emailed Dell support, and got what appeared to be a pretty standard reply and an offer for a replacement. I didn't ask for a replacement in my original email, because I mainly wanted to know if this stuff was normal, but when I was assured that I'd get a monitor without these problems, I said OK, and sent the shipping information that was asked for.

Anyway I got my second 2005FPW (a couple weeks ago, but I haven't been around much to be able to deal with it until now), and the backlight was much better. Not perfect, but I could probably live with it. Unfortunately, the other two problems are also visible on the new one. :(

So, I will ask once again, are these problems normal? What are the chances that I would get two monitors with the exact same problems if they aren't? The only reason I have any confidence left at all, is that only a few people said they saw the same things when I asked in another forum.

Is there a a flawless 2005FPW out there, or should I just assume these are to be expected and return it completely? Is that even a possibility? It's been more than 30 days since the first order, but I've had the second one for less than that.

Here are two of the photos I originally emailed to Dell support:





If anybody else wants an easy way to test for this ghosting, try this.

I'd really appreciate any input from someone at Dell who knows something about these monitors (that's why I came here as opposed to calling or emailing again, because I heard this is the right place for that).

Thanks for your help.

Martin



PS: BTW, now there is a third problem that is really starting to bug me. There is a strange pattern that I see whenever I move my eyes across the screen and try to focus on something near the left edge. It looks like a dithering pattern, but it pretty regular, and disappears as soon as I try to focus on it. Really disturbing. It's like that singing frog. Again, it's only on the left side of the screen, so it's not my eyes (and I'm not crazy).

me77

5 Posts

January 10th, 2005 19:00

Oh, and this is a DVI connection, but I've also tried it over VGA to a different computer, and S-video to my DVD player in a different room.

KO cape

287 Posts

January 10th, 2005 19:00

On top of your present problems, You will only get refurbished monitors from now on, you let your 21 days run out

I gave up after 3

Dim 4550
P4 2.4G 533
1024Mb DDR@333Mhz
Maxtor 30GB 7200rpm
Maxtor 120GB 7200rpm
NVIDIA TI 4200 64MB
SB Live with 5.1
Plextor PX-708A DVD +/- R/RW
HL-DT-ST CD-RW Drive
XP Home SP2
Samsung 193P

ajabbari

59 Posts

January 10th, 2005 19:00

Yes, mine will exhibit faint after effects as well, but for all I know this could effect many of the LCDs out on the market since I've never done this test before on any other LCD. Also I would have never noticed this if I hadn't read your post here. It's not something I'd notice in daily use. There is a slight fading of colors near the left edge (and I mean so slight that you don't know if its there or if you're seeing things) this is also something that I would never notice unless I was looking for it with a calibration tool.
 
The effect you describe as a dithering effect has to do with how LCDs refresh themselves (yes LCDs still have to refresh themselves though this is a very different process for an LCD). All LCDs will exhibit some of this but it tends to become more apparent on faster panels. I beleive it has to do with a property called inversion, on some LCDs it comes across as an interlacing effect. The 2005FPW is excellent at keeping this in check if you ask me. I've used a 16ms Sony panel where this effect was very visible and annoying on moving objects.
 
Quite frankly if you want to be this picky with the stuff on your screen then LCD may not be the technology for you. Though I don't even know how you can be happy with CRTs either. If you want to that picky both of my old Sony trinitrons ehibited very slight color deviations across certain areas of the screen just due to magnitization (even after degausing) that were so subtle that anyone else looking at it would probably tell me I'm seeing things. No offense, but I think you're being way too picky about this sort of thing. I'm a pretty picky person myself but as I said earlier to me this is a non issue. It's like commenting about flicker on a CRT running at 120Hz.
 
To answer your question, I think that these are just the properties of this panel, and that there is a good chance that if you looked at any other LCD based on the same panel (I.E. the 20" Apple Cinema Display) you'd see the same issues. I'm sure that you'd also find a multitude of other defects and annoyances with every other LCD you look at on the market. It isn't a perfect technology and every panel has to basically try to balance the good vs. the bad.

me77

5 Posts

January 10th, 2005 20:00

ajabbari,

I appreciate the response, but I'd like to mention that I used two different Apple 23' Cinema displays (the older models) at work for over a year, have a Thinkpad, and had a Powerbook before that. None of which had any of the problems I'm seeing here (or the backlight problem that the first one had).

I asked about these issues because I thought it's a bit odd that if they were somehow to be expected, that they would show up on just the three or four inches near the left side of the screen. To me that doesn't seem so much like a problem with LCD technology in general, as it does with this monitor in particular (or, as you say, the panel used).

So, I wanted to know if that's really the case, or if it's just mine. If it's normal for the Dell because it's so cheap, I'd be happy to spend a bit more and look somewhere else.


As for being picky, you're right. I am. I certainly noticed that my Powerbook's screen had a bluish tint, the Cinema Displays were not very bright in daylight, the Thinkpad's a bit undersaturated, and all my CRTs were a bit blurry, but I never really had a problem with those things. It's just when a screen isn't even consistent with itself that I start to have a problem.

whacking

62 Posts

January 10th, 2005 20:00

I've seen that ghosting problem before on the Dell 2000FP monitors. I went through 3 of them before the ones I got did not exhibit that weird ghosting effect. It almost appeared to be burned in and was most noticeable when you moved windows around (such as IM windows, IE windows, etc).

I just bought a Dell 2001FP - hopefully that one won't have the same type of problems.

KO cape

287 Posts

January 10th, 2005 21:00

The 2005 monitors shipped in Nov. & Dec  that have a backlight problem are totally unacceptable by any standard.

Dell has acknowledged this problem and has started to ship a rivised version in january

after getting 3 bad monitors in a row I went with the samsung 193p, about as perfect as you can get

ajabbari

59 Posts

January 10th, 2005 21:00

Well, after your initial posting, and despite my response, I couldn't help but do a bit more testing. There is a slight inconsistency in saturation and tone that is more noticiable with pink and purple backgrounds as you go from one side of the display to the other. The ghosting issue only exhibited itself on the grey background in your test after about a minute of having it on the test pattern. It doesn't seem to be apparent on other colors I've never run into it with normal use. Both of these problems are well documented with Apple displays based on the same/similar panels as well (which shouldn't excuse them, but puts them into some perspective). Check out the following links...
 
 
Hopefully you'll forgive the dismissive tone of my initial response it seems that there may be more to these problems than I initially thought. I'll stand by my statement that these issues probably shouldn't affect average users as they are very subtle. However, it could be a major issue for graphic artists who require high levels of color precision and consistency in their displays.
 
From the articles above it sounds like a lot of 20"+ TFTs tend to exhibit this behavior, so maybe you got lucky with those 23" cinema displays.

KO cape

287 Posts

January 10th, 2005 23:00

me77

The 2005 shipped now are Rev A01, not to much feedback yet, some are good, others are still bad

Message Edited by KO cape on 01-10-2005 08:37 PM

me77

5 Posts

January 10th, 2005 23:00

ajabbari,

Thank you for the xlr8yourmac link. I should have known to check there or Macintouch after hearing that it was the same panel. I've been out of the Mac loop for a little while, but I do know that if there are any flaws in Apple/Mac-related products, they will show up there.

It doesn't give me much hope though, especially since this is something that does NOT seem to be noticed by a lot of the 2005FPW users. Maybe if something is done for the Apple displays, it will also have a positive effect on these. But that still leaves me with a dilemma...

Do I call Dell about another replacement or do I call and ask for my money back? I have no interest in wasting my time or theirs, and if I can't get a monitor that won't have these problems, I want out (again, I've had this replacement for less than 30 days, so I figure it's possible that may still be an option).

Or...

Do I keep this, and wait a bit for them to get these problems sorted out, and then send it in for warranty repairs?

KO cape,

What do you know about this "acknowledgement" and the revised version? Is there actually a rev A01 version? Does it address any specific problems aside from the backlight issue?

ClockerXP

21 Posts

January 11th, 2005 01:00

My Dec A01 is not very good. Pretty bad backlight issues in the corners and several stuck pixels.

Anyone know when the JAN revs. start shipping?

CxP

ajabbari

59 Posts

January 11th, 2005 04:00

Apparently there is a rev A01 but it's too soon to tell whether all of them will be free of backlighting problems. I don't mean to sound pessimistic but I wouldn't hold my breath when it comes to Dell addressing those issues. If Apple hasn't fixed it yet despite their emphasis on graphics professionals then I find it extremely unlikely that Dell will get around to fixing it anytime soon given it's taken them this long to address an issue as obvious as the backlighting problem. In the long run you may have an easier time getting a company like Apple to help you out simply because they are trying to cater to graphic artists.
 
I just called in to get a replacement for my 2005FPW due to some backlighting issues. The replacement is supposed to be new and will hopefully be a rev A01 unit. It may take at least a week for me to get it, but if it corrects the backlighting issue and I decide to keep it I'll look and see if it also corrects any of these other issues. It is indeed possible that improvments in Apple's displays could also carry over to the Dells since they're both manufactured by LG-Philips.
 
If you don't think you can live with the issue try and see if you can get a refund (though unfortunately I think the refund period is 21 days from your ship/invoice date). If you can't get the refund you can try getting it replaced under warranty a few months from now. Even if you got a refurb there is a good chance it would be an improvement over your current screen if its a later revision. I hope everything turns out for the best...

ozzynyc

10 Posts

January 11th, 2005 18:00

ClockerXP, what are you talking about? I saw you post on http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=830031&page=35&pp=20 and your screen looks fantastic. I think a lot of people raised a paranoia about the issue of backlight where one doesn't really exist. Yes, dead pixels i can understand, but i looked at a $900 Samsung and Viewsonic screens and they all now have dead pixels. Your backlight from your pictures looks perfect. An issue with a backlight is really a problem when you see an very strong uneveness of white color or perhaps a very bright white spot. Sorry, but your screen looks good, enjoy it! Make sure to turn down brightness to low number, like 50 and adjust contrast in your control panel (since you can't do it using a DVI connection).

Message Edited by ozzynyc on 01-11-2005 03:15 PM

AnubisX2005

5 Posts

January 11th, 2005 18:00

"PS: BTW, now there is a third problem that is really starting to bug me. There is a strange pattern that I see whenever I move my eyes across the screen and try to focus on something near the left edge. It looks like a dithering pattern, but it pretty regular, and disappears as soon as I try to focus on it. Really disturbing. It's like that singing frog. Again, it's only on the left side of the screen, so it's not my eyes (and I'm not crazy). "
 
No, you're not crazy.  I know exactly what you're talking about, except that it's noticeable on my entire screen.  My first monitor had backlight problems, but it did not have this problem.  I compared both of them multiple times, reset to factory defaults, used the same cords, yet this replacement has that weird dithering screendoor effect that the other didn't.  The backlight on this newer one (Dec A00) is fantastic, but it has a lot of dead pixels. 

ajabbari

59 Posts

January 11th, 2005 22:00

ClockerXP,
 
Aside from the leakage we're all talking about there is another effect on the 2005FPW that simply has to do with how the panel handles viewing angles. It shows up if I stand a bit higher than my display and look down at it and looks like a peach colored area around the corners. If I was to position my had directly in front of the same corner where I see the effect it would go away, it would also shift around if I move my head around. From your pictures it looks like your 2005FPW is only exhibiting this effect (which is simply a characteristic of the panel) and not the leakage we're talking about which shows up as a distinct greyish blob that doesn't really go away as you move your head around in front of the screen.
 
If you are getting the greyish blob effect then your pictures are not doing it justice.

Message Edited by ajabbari on 01-11-2005 04:31 PM

ClockerXP

21 Posts

January 11th, 2005 22:00

ozzy-
Check you might want to check the brightness of your monitor and look at the pics again. The bleed-through effect is pretty bad. The pictures don't do it justice but I can still see significant bleed through in them. It's worse in person.
C

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