XPS 15 9500 vs. ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 2

I agree with everything you've said, I'm quite dissapointed with 9500 15" compared to the 17" (which has better cooling and 4 x TB3 ports). Not really sure why Dell went this route for the new XPS 15.. 

The 17" verison is supposed to be same size as a 15" though so it looks like they want consumers you go for the more expensive flagship with better cooling etc. Clever tactic but could be a costly one 

@Rav27  Glad to hear I'm not the only one here.  Even the XPS 17 has ditched "legacy" ports too though.  And the XPS 15 is designed to be the same size as "traditional" 15" systems that had "standard" bezels, just as the XPS 15 is the size of traditional 14" system and the XPS 13 is the size of a traditional 11" systems.  But given that both the XPS 15 and XPS 17 have the InfinityEdge design, the relative size difference between them will still be noticeable.  I had both 15" and 17" laptops in the old days (Inspiron 9100 and Precision M90), and you could definitely tell the difference.  I'll still be curious to see the XPS 17 in person though.  I went from a Precision M6300 (17") to an XPS 15 9530 because I decided that I wanted something a bit more portable.  If the upcoming XPS 17 had existed back then or I was still running a 17" system and only now deciding that I wanted a bit more portability, I very likely would have considered an InfinityEdge 17" system.  But now that I've adjusted to smaller footprint 15" systems, I'm not so sure I'd go back.

Can you please elaborate on the comment on:

The X1 Extreme Gen 2's display outputs are also wired to the dGPU, which means they support DisplayPort HBR3, VR, G-Sync, and various other technologies that don't work when the NVIDIA GPU has to work through NVIDIA Optimus because the system's display outputs are physically wired to the Intel GPU. Meanwhile, the XPS 15's outputs are all wired to the Intel GPU.

How does it affect the normal user?

Keyboard Home/End keys...

This is a terrible idea, especially for Linux users.

@ganomi  It might depend on what you mean by "normal user", but I'll give you a few details.

The Intel GPU in this particular system only supports DisplayPort 1.2/HBR2.  The NVIDIA GPU supports DisplayPort 1.4/HBR3.  The latter offers more bandwidth, which means being able to run higher-end display setups.  For example, I can run 4K 60 Hz with HDR to my TV from my X1 Extreme Gen 2, which wouldn't be possible if the display outputs were controlled by the Intel GPU because DP 1.2 doesn't offer enough bandwidth for that (unless you run reduced chroma).  The Intel GPU would only support 4K 60 Hz without HDR.  And I think -- but have not confirmed -- that the NVIDIA GPU also supports DisplayPort DSC, which allows even MORE effective bandwidth.  The only Intel GPUs on the market right now that support DP 1.4/HBR3 are the ones built into the "Ice Lake" CPUs, but those are only found on low-power systems like the XPS 13.  Intel still has their higher-performance CPUs, like the ones in the X1 Extreme and XPS 15, running an older GPU that only supports DP 1.2.

But even if the Intel GPU in this system did support DP 1.4, there are other benefits of having the NVIDIA GPU control the outputs rather than the Intel GPU, such as:

• The NVIDIA GPU can support up to 4 displays, whereas Intel GPUs only support 3, counting the built-in panel if it's running, and in Linux it is always running.  So on the X1 Extreme, there's a BIOS option to choose which GPU controls the built-in display, and if you leave that on the Intel GPU, then you can run up to 4 more displays from the external display outputs that are all always controlled by the NVIDIA GPU.  If the Intel GPU controlled everything, you would only be able to run the internal display plus 2 external displays (or 3 external displays and no built-in display if you were on Windows).  Even if you set the BIOS option to have the NVIDIA display control the built-in display, you would still get one more total display than you would be able to run with an Intel GPU.
• The NVIDIA GPU having control of the external outputs allows you to run G-Sync, Adaptive V-Sync, and VR headsets through those outputs (you can research them yourself if you don't know what those are).  None of those technologies are available for display outputs controlled by Intel GPUs.
• The NVIDIA GPU supports 5K resolution (5120x2880), which the Intel GPU in this system doesn't.  (The new Intel "Ice Lake" GPUs do support this, however.)
• Some applications still don't work well under NVIDIA Optimus, which is what happens when the NVIDIA GPU is accelerating content on a display controlled by the Intel GPU.  This is partly why the BIOS option I mentioned above exists, so that if you run an application like that, you can have even the built-in display controlled by the NVIDIA GPU.

The only real downside to having the NVIDIA GPU control display outputs is battery life.  When the NVIDIA GPU controls an output that a display is connected to, then it has to remain enabled whenever that display is active, even if nothing graphics-intensive is going on.  When the Intel GPU controls everything, then the NVIDIA GPU can be completely powered off unless its performance is actually needed.

Hi.

I currently have X1 Extreme gen 2 and I can confirm the port details. I specifically asked Lenovo if I can run 5K displays on the TB ports and they confirmed. In the end, I bought 2x 4K.

I was trying to find out more info about the ports in XPS and what I found confirms what you are saying:

USB-C 3.2 Gen 2/DisplayPort 1.4
2 x USB-C 3.2 Gen 2/Thunderbolt 3/DisplayPort 1.2 (Power Delivery)

The 2 TB ports seem to be just DP 1.2 ports as you are saying.

I as Linux user use only the Nvidia dGPU, so having the TB ports linked to dGPU is probably quite important. So I will probably not upgrade to Dell XPS and get X1 Extreme Gen 3.

@ganomi  Actually even the non-TB port on the XPS 15 9500 is DP 1.2. The 1.4 claim is a confirmed error because that port is still driven by the Intel GPU, which in that system simply doesn’t support 1.4. Meanwhile, the specs of the XPS 17 9700 are incomplete because the specs say that all of its ports are only DP 1.2, except it has a BIOS option allowing the NVIDIA GPU to take control of all outputs (including the built-in display), and if you enable that, then it DOES support 1.4. The specs don’t mention that.

If you already have an X1E2, there really isn’t much value upgrading to the X1E3 unless you really need built-in LTE. Otherwise it’s a pretty minor refresh. And if you compare the PSREF PDFs of each system, it appears that some of the displays have been downgraded. For example, I have the 1080p anti-glare 500 nit HDR/Dolby Vision display. The equivalent display on the X1E3 seems to have a lower contrast ratio, and it’s not clear whether it supports Dolby Vision anymore. The PSREF sheet mentions it, but the Tech Specs and Configure Yours areas of the website have removed references to Dolby Vision for that display, even though those areas mention it for the X1E2.

I have to get a new notebook as a requirement from my new employer. I could use my Extreme Gen2 with 4K OLED, but they insist. So I have no choice but to purchase a new notebook.

Unfortunately, they don't seem to have X1 Extreme Gen2 with 4K display any more in Australia. They don't have even  Gen3 yet. (The OLED is the best such a great display.)

I prefer Thinkpad, but XPS seems to be my only option now.

except it has a BIOS option allowing the NVIDIA GPU to take control of all outputs (including the built-in display), and if you enable that, then it DOES support 1.4.

So it seems that I will be able to run my 4K Benq monitors on one TB port or over docking.

Dell also told me that I should be able to run 5K on the TB port if needed.

@ganomi  I'm not a fan of glossy displays, so OLED is out for me.  And at least with other 4K displays, it takes a pretty big toll on battery life, and the X1 Extreme's battery life already isn't great.  I realize that OLED uses less power than LCD, but I don't need it.  And I also tend to prefer displays that allow me to stick to the default Windows 100% display scaling setting, since some applications still don't handle scaling very well.  A display with a high pixel density is great when everything scales nicely, but it can look even worse than a low pixel density display if the application doesn't handle scaling nicely.  It can also be a problem for people who want to use their built-in display and external displays simultaneously (I don't do this), because although running multiple scale factors simultaneously is supported, it means that any displays not using the scale factor of the display that was primary at the time the user logged in won't look as good as they would otherwise, due to how Windows handles this scenario of multiple simultaneous scale factors.

As for the BIOS option that you quoted, note again that I was talking about the XPS 17 there, not the 15.  The XPS 15 does not have the BIOS option I described.  However, even a TB3 system that only supports DP 1.2 can run dual 4K 60 Hz displays through a Thunderbolt 3 dock.  But with certain docks like the Dell WD19TB, there are specific cabling requirements that come into play when using 4K displays, and the requirements vary based on whether the system is running DP 1.2 or DP 1.4 to the dock.  Incidentally, I'd recommend the WD19TB if you go with an XPS 15 or 17, because it's the only current Thunderbolt dock that can supply 130W over USB-C/TB3.  The official USB PD spec maxes out at 100W, but Dell did something proprietary to stretch that to 130W specifically to support certain systems.  The XPS 15 9500 is designed for 130W if you get a configuration that includes an NVIDIA GPU (Intel-only systems are designed for 90W), and the XPS 17 is designed for 130W in all configurations.  If you use some other dock that offers less than 130W, then you'll either need to keep the system's own adapter connected for optimal performance or else put up with slower battery charging and possibly throttled CPU and GPU performance.

And yes, the XPS 17 with that BIOS option active should be able to run a 5K display, although I don't have a way to confirm that.

OLED reflections - I know what you are saying. I was also sceptical at first, but both Dell and Lenovo did a great job with the anti-reflective and anti-smudge coating. I get the minimum reflection. (I had both Dell and Lenovo with OLED).

OLED power - yes it eats more battery than 1080p, but the picture from OLED is amazing. The contrast cannot be compared to LED.

BIOS option - if the TB ports do not support DP 1.4, I would say they have made a mistake somewhere.

@ganomi  My laptop spends 98% of its life connected to a docking station with the lid closed, so the built-in panel wasn't a major consideration for me.

Lack of DP 1.4 support isn't a TB issue.  It's a limitation of the fact that the USB-C/TB3 ports are wired to the Intel GPU, and the Intel GPU in the CPUs used by these systems only support DP 1.2.  The only Intel GPUs currently on the market that support DP 1.4 are the ones built into the "Ice Lake" CPUs, which are SOME of the Core 10th Gen CPUs, specifically the ones with models ending with a "G" followed by a number.  They got a brand new 10nm architecture that includes a new "Gen 11" GPU.  The rest of the 10th Gen CPUs, such as the ones with models ending in a "U" or "H" -- the latter of which are used in the XPS 15/17 and X1 Extreme -- are still on a 14nm architecture that is essentially yet another refresh of the architecture originally introduced as Broadwell (Core 5th Gen), and therefore they're still using an old Intel GPU that only supports DP 1.2.  Intel has been having real trouble transitioning to 10nm in volume, never mind getting to 7nm where AMD is already operating.  That failure to get to 10nm quickly enough has led to a recent change in leadership in Intel's engineering department.

Anyway, the X1 Extreme gets around this by wiring the USB-C/TB3 ports to the NVIDIA GPU, which supports DP 1.4.  And the XPS 17 sort of gets around this by doing the same thing if you enable the BIOS option that causes it to run that way.  But the XPS 15 doesn't have that option, so that system (and the XPS 17 in its default configuration) have their outputs controlled by the Intel GPU, and are therefore limited to DP 1.2, even though they have Titan Ridge TB3 controllers that would otherwise support DP 1.4.

@jphughan  Ah, so you are not actually far away from your laptop.  May I ask which keyboard and mouse you use?  And if you do recommend any particular wireless keyboard (which is more a situation we would find ourselves)?

@Unhappy Canadian  In terms of what I'd recommend in the wireless camp, for keyboards it would be the Logitech MX Keys.  For a mouse, the MX Master 3 is sublime.  But since you used the phrase "a situation we would find ourselves", if you're a business looking to standardize on equipment for employees, those products may admittedly be a bit expensive for that use case.  For an office mouse, the Logitech Marathon M705 is an excellent choice.  I don't have an immediate recommendation for a lower-end wireless keyboard since I just don't use them very often.

But in terms of what I actually use, I use the MX Master 3 mouse that I mentioned above.  On the keyboard side, I have a wired "mechanical keyboard".  There's a fair amount of literature about the virtues of mechanical keyboards, particularly fast typists.  On a good keyboard, I can type around 140 WPM (but I have atrocious handwriting -- go figure.)  One downside of mechanical keyboards though is that they can be a bit loud.  Even the "quiet" keyboard switches could only be called that in relation to the truly loud clicky switches, not relative to typical keyboards.  But the specific keyboard I have is the Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate with the Cherry MX Brown switches.  As you'll see if you look it up, it has blank keys.  I don't need to look at keys as I type, and I find the blank look keeps the keys looking nicer (no dirty or partially worn lettering) and feeling slightly better (no silkscreening).  But mostly I just like it because it's a bit fun.  The Das Keyboard 4 Professional is the same keyboard with lettering.

@Unhappy Canadian  My laptop is connected to a docking station, and connected to that docking station are my two dual 27" QHD displays, my speakers, and a 14-port USB 3.0 hub that in turn has a variety of other peripherals attached to it, including my keyboard and mouse.  I basically use my laptop as a desktop most of the time, but I want to retain the ability to take it with me when traveling and such.

@jphughan  Can I make "kudo" the default setting when I reply to your posts?

We don't have a large number of employees (and am only a couple of years away from retirement), the "situation" is more hooking up the laptop to the tv and controlling it from our chair about 8 feet away.  

We can use a long hdmi cable to do this, but is awkward for people or pets who might trip over this.

The wireless keyboards we have used included a trackpad...first a Windows keyboard (which died after about 4 years) and now a Logitech.  It works fairly well and of course mimics the way the laptop works.

But a separate keyboard and mouse might well provide more functionality and might be worth having a table to place them on.

Wow!  Way back in school I was the champion at typing in our class...about 80 - 90 wpm...out of practice I can still get around 60...but 140?  That is blazing fast!  My handwriting is also atrocious, it runs in the male side of our family, who are mostly teachers.

How fast are you on hand devices?

@jphughan  You say that "My laptop spends 98% of its life connected to a docking station with the lid closed".  So, does that mean you use a remote keyboard?  If so, what are your recommendations? (and please forgive if it looks like we are stalking you!)