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karatekid430

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karatekid430

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June 10th, 2020 02:00

XPS 17 9700 Technical Questions

Hi,

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the new Dell XPS 17 9700 laptop. It's the first laptop I would really want to buy (4x Thunderbolt 3 ports should be non-negotiable for every laptop, kudos to Apple for leading on that one), but I still need to be careful. I am not happy that in six to twelve months this will be obsolete as it does not have USB4 support (Thunderbolt 4 supports USB4 devices).

1. It has 2x M.2 slots. Are they 2280 or 22110? If 22110, then we can install Optane 905p 380GB M.2 drives.
2. Are the Thunderbolt controllers connected via PCIe to the CPU or the PCH?
3. Are the Thunderbolt controllers Titan Ridge controllers (JHL7540)?
4. If so, can the it output DisplayPort 1.4 (8K monitors) with Intel GPU? What about with Nvidia RTX? Remember how the Macbook 13 with Titan Ridge could only do DP 1.2 because of the Intel GPU. The Macbook 15 could do DP1.4 / 8K monitors because it had a Radeon GPU.
5. Are the Thunderbolt controllers connected via DisplayPort to Intel GPU or Nvidia GPU (if present)?
6. Native enumeration / Kernel DMA protection for Thunderbolt?
7. Does it have the bug like the Dell XPS 13 9370 where the BIOS option to disable Thunderbolt does not work?
8. What is the lowest wattage of power adapter with which it will work? For XPS 9365 2-in-1 it's 20W (bundled with 30W but negotiates up to 50W) and for XPS 9370 it's 27W (bundled with 45W). My external GPUs provide 100W and hope that would be enough. But ideally it would trickle charge off 15W like the Macbook Pro can (Macbook Pro can legitimately trickle charge from the Thunderbolt port of my XPS 9370).
9. Can we get the maxed out model (i7-10885H 8-core) but without Nvidia GPU? The Nvidia GPU will cause all sorts of issues in Linux and is a deal breaker. I would get the base model and upgrade it but would like all the CPU horsepower I can get, and the base model is only quad core.
10. Will the fingerprint reader finally work with Linux?
11. Number of DisplayPort connections in total to all Thunderbolt controllers? Can I drive a monitor from all four at once, plus the internal display?
12. Will Dell ship a developer version of the XPS 17 9700 with Linux pre-installed?
13. What brand of SSD comes preinstalled? My XPS 13 9370 came with a Toshiba SSD. Literally never again -  mine is so bad and wore out very quickly. The other day I burned through SLC cache in seconds and was writing at 80MB/s.

Thank you!

  • Karora

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    Posted July 25th, 2020 10:00

    The answers to some of your questions...

    1. Looks like 2280:
    # dmidecode | grep 2280
    Internal Reference Designator: JSSD1 - M.2 2280 SSD 1
    Internal Reference Designator: JSSD2 - M.2 2280 SSD 2

    3. (& possibly this will help you answer #2)

    05:00.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    06:00.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    06:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    06:02.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    06:04.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    07:00.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 NHI [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    3b:00.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 USB Controller [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    6f:00.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    70:00.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    70:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    70:02.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    70:04.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 Bridge [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    71:00.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 NHI [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)
    a5:00.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 USB Controller [Titan Ridge 4C 2018] (rev 06)

    4, 5, 6 I don't know how I could tell.  If you've some command I can run on this to find out I'm happy to do that...

    7. I don't have any Thunderbolt devices, so I can't do much testing for this.

    8. I have an "Innergie" 45W adapter I picked up in Taiwan a couple of years back, and the laptop will happily run on this - I used to use this on my previous XPS 9560.  Like on the XPS 9560 I expect if I do a `make clean build` on a buildroot or the like I'm gonna start chewing battery, but for coding-thinking-coding-thinking-coding cycles it looks like it'll be just fine.

    9. It seems unlikely.  I have the NVidia GPU here, running on Debian Sid with a 5.7 kernel and the nVidia GPU seems to work fine (with the nvidia-driver installed and module loaded that was built with dkms) - the laptop is cold most of the time and I hear no fan noise.

    10. Bus 001 Device 002: ID 27c6:533c Shenzhen Goodix Technology Co.,Ltd. FingerPrint

    Signs point to "No" - https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/libfprint/libfprint/-/issues/267

    11. Sorry, I have no external displays, so I can't help with this.

    12. Oh, wouldn't it be luverly...

    13. The pre-installed SSD is:
    02:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: SK hynix Device 1639

    I have also added (with no issues):
    03:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Sandisk Corp WD Black 2018/PC SN720 NVMe SSD

    I hope this is some help.  I have no association with Dell - I'm just a programmer who's been running Linux full-time on laptops for 20+ years and decided to shell-out my hard-earned readies for one of these for my four-yearly upgrade.  I could only get the 10875H model, since that's the most power we're allowed in Ireland at present, even though it was shipped from China.

    At this point my biggest annoyances are:
    1. The Audio is unsupported.  I seem to have landed in a chasm between HDA and the new Soundwire sound architecture. I expect this will start to work better from Linux 5.8 (not yet in Debian) and onwards.  Meanwhile I have a "USB-C to Headphone Socket" which came free with a phone, and which will meet my needs for a workaround for a few months.

    2. The "Home" and "End" keys are now and .  This would be so much better if they could be and , but my brain will get used to it in due course.  I think Dell assume that most people don't use function keys.

    Cheers,
    Andrew.

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 25th, 2020 12:00

    @karatekid430  Well apparently even the Precision 5750 doesn't allow higher-end CPUs with an Intel-only GPU configuration, at least as of this writing in the Dell US store.  That used to be possible on the Precision 55xx models that mirrored the XPS 15s, even though the XPS 15s didn't offer that.  (But fyi there's no i7-10885H.  There's an i7-10875H and an i9-10885H, both of which offer 8 cores.)

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 25th, 2020 12:00

    @karatekid430  One additional note about the power supply question.  Even if you can get 90-100W from some other source, the use of an undersized power source can cause performance throttling, and in the case of the XPS 17 can even cause the system to continue to drain its battery.  That's because Dell explicitly designed the system to drain the battery under load even when connected to its 130W power source, so an undersized power source could exacerbate that issue (or possibly result in more severe throttling than would otherwise have occurred).  It turns out that even 130W isn't quite enough to power the XPS 17 properly, which in fairness shouldn't be surprising since it's the same power supply Dell has used for years on XPS 15 models.  But making matters worse is that it seems there's currently a bug that prevents the system from even drawing a full 130W from Dell's own power source, which is leading to even more significant battery drain than was "designed" to occur.  More info here, including a link to a Notebookcheck article containing statements from Dell on this matter.  Bottom line: Even after the unintentionally high battery drain issue is resolved, given that some amount of battery drain under heavy load is expected, I wouldn't recommend relying on a different power source, or at least you should expect more significant battery drain and/or throttled performance if you do that.  I grant that if you order a configuration that only includes the Intel GPU as you seem to want, then you'll likely fare better, but it may still not be ideal.

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 25th, 2020 12:00

    @karatekid430  I'll answer the ones that I can:

    3. The Thunderbolt controllers are Titan Ridge.  Intel isn't even selling Alpine Ridge controllers anymore, to my knowledge, and Titan Ridge controllers have been around since mid-2018 if memory serves.

    4. The XPS 17 has a BIOS option allowing you to choose which GPU has direct control of the display outputs, including the built-in display.  You can set it so either the Intel GPU controls all of them, with the NVIDIA GPU working through NVIDIA Optimus, or so the NVIDIA GPU controls all of them.  You can't mix and match.  When the Intel GPU controls the outputs, the TB3 outputs have DP 1.2 interfaces.  When the NVIDIA GPU controls the outputs, the TB3 outputs have DP 1.4 interfaces.  This has been confirmed by checking how the system behaves with the WD19TB in each mode, since the WD19TB behaves differently depending on whether it is working with a DP 1.2/HBR2 system or a DP 1.4/HBR3 system.  I'm not sure if DisplayPort DSC is available even in the latter case, though.

    5. See above.

    6. Yes on Kernel DMA Protection.

    8. Not sure, but the XPS 17 uses a 130W power supply just like the last several generations of XPS 15s, and from what I've seen, they will not work with anything less than  60W power source, although even then the system throttles quite significantly, so 60W is only really usable for very light work or overnight charging while the system isn't being used.  However, also be aware that Dell for a while now has limited how much power their systems will draw over USB-C from non-Dell power sources.  On many Dell systems on the market right now, that limit is 65W, even when using a power source that can provide more and when the system would benefit from more -- like the XPS 15.  However, there are confirmed reports of the new XPS 15 9500 drawing at least 90W from non-Dell sources, so it seems Dell may be lightening up on this.  Not sure about 100W, although I seem to remember somebody connecting that to an eGPU enclosure that could provide 100W and finding that their system wouldn't charge from it at all.  Might be due to early firmware glitches on new products.

    9. Doubtful.  If you want to customize to that level, you might have to look at the XPS 17's sister system, the Precision 5750, which has a "Fully customizable" build option.  But on the XPS side, if the last several generations of XPS 15s are any indication, only the base model is available without an NVIDIA GPU.  I'd be surprised if Dell strayed from that years-long precedent all of a sudden.

    11. This might depend on which GPU is in control, and be aware that the Intel GPU only supports 3 simultaneous independent displays, regardless of how they're connected.  This includes the built-in display when active, and from what I've read about Linux, the built-in display is ALWAYS active at a hardware level, which means you'd be limited to two displays.  (The documentation on Dell's docking stations calls this out because it affects how many external displays can be run through the dock when the system is running Linux rather than Windows.)  Not sure what the limit is on the NVIDIA GPU, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 4 displays total, again regardless of resolution.  And then yes you'd have to make sure your specific quad display configuration fit within the bandwidth capabilities of whatever was offered by the GPU, and I don't know what that is.  Unfortunately Dell's specs aren't as clear about this as Apple's.

    12. Again, doubtful given that it hasn't happened for the XPS 15 yet, even though the XPS 13 has had Developer Editions for several generations now.

    13. Dell uses multiple suppliers, which can include Samsung, Toshiba, SK Hynix, and I think even Intel now.  I'm not aware of the XPS 17 being guaranteed with even a specific brand, never mind a specific model.  It's luck of the draw.  If that's a dealbreaker, consider getting the lowest-end storage option you can and installing whatever you want aftermarket.  But if you with the Precision 5750, you can choose between "classes" of SSDs.  I can't find the specs of Dell's SSD classes offhand, but that at least is supposed to give you some control over the performance of the SSD you receive.  Unfortunately the XPS 17 doesn't specify that at all, so I don't know what class its SSD offerings fall into.

  • Karora

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    Posted July 27th, 2020 09:00

    Just to add another data point regarding the power adaptor...

    I discharged the battery down to around 20% and it's reporting that it will take 3.5 hours to recharge with my 45W adaptor.  With the 130W adaptor it said it would take about 1/3 that time.

    Obviously this is in a low-use situation: a couple of web browsers, various chat clients, a few VS Code workspaces, etc.

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 27th, 2020 09:00

    @Karora  Good data point.  I'm surprised the system even bothered to try to use a 45W source at all, given that it's only 35% of the 130W power level the system is actually designed for, and even that 130W isn't enough to sustain the XPS 17 at full load.  I wouldn't recommend running any type of device from a power supply that's only about a third of what it's supposed to have.  Especially with GaN chargers hitting the market, a high wattage power adapter that's small isn't difficult to find.  Aukey has a 100W Omnia charger for about $55 in the US, and I just got a RAVPower 90W dual port charger for the same price.  I decided the extra port was worth more than the extra 10W, since the RAVPower can split that power as either 90/0, 60/30, or 45/45.

  • karatekid430

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    Posted July 28th, 2020 06:00

    @Karora thanks for the information. But "lspci -vt" might show more, or ideally "sudo lspci -xxxx" attached in a file. The information given proves it uses Titan Ridge but it does not show which root ports they are attached to.

    It is good that it runs off 45W. That means the tiny Samsung EP-TA845 phone charger will be enough to keep it alive under light loads.

    The i7-10875H is 8 core which is the highest they offer. If you meant the i9, afaik that only had slightly higher boost or something - barely any different. If only they could lose the Nvidia GPU and use AMD then they might be able to pack more than 8 core in. Then again, even AMD might not be doing more than 8 for mobile for now.

    It is good that the Nvidia driver works, but if it is the proprietary one, I will pass - it causes all sorts of problems, particularly if using mainline kernels and using certain distros - plus it flies against everything which Linux stands for.

    Given how impressive Thunderbolt 4 is, I might wait and see if they do a 6-month refresh of this. If they drop in Maple Ridge Thunderbolt 4 chips, then it will be perfect. Thunderbolt 3 does not support USB4 and I will be punching myself if I buy now and I cannot use the awesome things which come out (like branching topology hubs, splitting one Thunderbolt port into three Thunderbolt ports).

    You can test disabling Thunderbolt by seeing if the Thunderbolt controllers disappear from lspci if you disable Thunderbolt in the BIOS.

    You can find out if the audio works - install mainline release candidate kernel deb from https://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 28th, 2020 07:00

    @karatekid430  I really wouldn't recommend relying on a 45W charger even for light loads.  A better charger really doesn't cost very much and doesn't have to be particularly large.  Take a look at that RAVPower unit I mentioned (link).

    I know the i7-10875H is an 8-core CPU.  I just mentioned it because your original post asked, "Can we get the maxed out model (i7-10885H 8-core)".  There is no i7-10885H, only an i9-10885H.  Maybe a typo on your end?

    Thunderbolt 4 actually isn't all that impressive if you already have a good TB3 system.  TB4 mostly just takes features that were optional on TB3 and makes them mandatory.  Working down this chart point by point:

    • Universal cables up to 2 meters.  There are already 2m active TB3 cables.  They don't work as regular USB-C cables except as basic USB 2.0 cables, so that will change (Apple's new TB3 Pro cable is an example of the new world order, but it costs $129), but do you care that much about this?  And if Apple's cable is any indication, it works with TB3 systems and devices anyway.
    • Accessories with 4 Thunderbolt ports.  Do you care about this?
    • Minimum PC reqs -- Two 4K displays.  This was optional on TB3 and is implemented on all Dell systems that have it.
    • PCIe 32 Gb/s.  That's PCIe 3.0 x4 support.  Also optional on TB3 (PCIe 3.0 x2 was mandatory) and implemented on recent Dell systems.  The XPS 15 got it with the 9570 generation a few years ago.
    • Required PC charging.  The footnote indicates that it's only mandatory for systems that require less than 100W.
    • Required PC wake from sleep. Might be nice if an industry standard develops around that (not necessarily the case based on the chart), but this is already supported on the XPS.
    • Required Intel VT-d.  This was optional on TB3 and is implemented on the XPS 17.

    The only real differentiation is what USB4 "Compliant" vs. "Compatible" will mean, which isn't clear yet.  But I personally wouldn't consider TB4 to be something worth waiting for compared to a TB3 system that has these optional capabilities implemented.  That would fall into my "There will always be something to wait for, and if you wait forever then you'll never buy anything" category, not my must-have category.

    In terms of being locked to Dell chargers, you've pretty much already agreed to that by picking a system designed for 130W that can only charge via USB-C, since the only way to do that is with Dell proprietary chargers.  I wouldn't consider the ability to charge at reduced performance from other chargers to be "not locked in", personally -- particularly given that Dell has confirmed that even 130W isn't enough to run the XPS 17 properly under load, which is why the battery will drain under load even while it's connected to power.  (I'm not sure if that is limited to loads that involve the NVIDIA GPU.  You might want to look into that.)

    And don't count on Intel doing anything about charging restrictions.  First of all, the XPS 17 would be exempt from the TB4 certification requirement for charging anyway based on its power requirements.  But even if it wasn't, supporting third party chargers at reduced charging levels doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden, and that will be necessary anyway since 130W is above the 100W max of the official USB PD spec.  So it's just a question of how FAR below 130W third party chargers will be limited to.

  • jphughan

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    Posted July 28th, 2020 07:00

    @karatekid430 Forgot to address the DP 1.4 support from Intel GPUs.  Currently that's only implemented on the "Ice Lake" CPUs.  Ice Lake is Intel's first proper CPU redesign since Broadwell (Core 5th Gen), which is why they got a new GPU.  But Ice Lake is also 10nm, and Intel's latest roadmaps indicate that they don't expect to get the H Series CPUs down to 10nm until possibly 2022.  So you might not see DP 1.4 support from Intel GPUs for a while, and in fairness, maybe Intel is taking the position that H Series CPUs tend to be used in systems with discrete GPUs anyway, so the system vendor would have the option of wiring their GPU outputs to that GPU instead or offering a BIOS option to toggle, as Dell did with the XPS 17 (but not the XPS 15 9500, annoyingly).  I realize that doesn't help you if you're trying to avoid a discrete GPU, but my read on Intel's predicament is that they already know they're way behind the curve getting to 10nm on these H Series CPUs -- given that AMD has been there for a while and is moving to 7nm -- so if Intel still doesn't expect to get there until 2022, the likelihood of them making a significant investment into building their new GPU into an architecture they're trying to get away from asap is practically nonexistent.  They'll be putting all of their focus on getting to 10nm.

  • karatekid430

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    Posted July 28th, 2020 07:00

    @Karora Thanks, this is very promising. If you are using it (even for light use) and it is charging off 45W then that means I could carry the laptop with a tiny Samsung EP-TA845 charger for everyday use, and then hammer it at home when I do more serious work. As I said, the Macbook can trickle charge off 15W, which is a very nice get out of jail free card, because it means if you are stuck without your laptop charger somewhere, you will be able to get it to 100W over night with a USB-PD phone charger, or even from a laptop with a barrel charger and a Thunderbolt 3 port (supplies 15W).