Seeking Advice : Xeon vs i7

Greetings,

For the ram question I am pretty sure the bus cannot supports over 1333MHz when the CPU is overclocked. If your using the level one over clock built in (you may or may not have this) it does lower the MHz of the ram. If you take off the overclock your ram should be at 1600MHz. I would test this out because if they sold you ram you cant really use that is not fair at all.

As for as the workstations go I am not very experienced in Xeons or the Radeon fire cards. BUT I do know that they are made for 3-D modeling, Auto-cad, Photoshop, etc. so its safe to assume they are most likely better than your Area 51 for what you are doing. You do have a very high end computer though so the difference could be unnoticeable or you could actually loose performance. If the workstation is in the same price range as the Area 51 or higher than Its a pretty safe guess it will be better for what you are doing.

I was originally interested in the Precision Studio laptop because my requirements are identical to Starmage's but at 1000 euros more than an Alienware I couldn't justify it especially as the Dell sales rep confirmed that the M17x's hardware would be more than adequate for 3D modelling. I haven't overclocked mine though.

I can't really confirm whether it's true yet because now into my 4th month and I still haven't been able to use the machine properly. Tomorrow the on-site tech is coming to replace the motherboard for the 2nd time as well as the memory as it seems that may also be defective. Once the machine is finally working we will see if it is up to the task but frankly, I can't see why it wouldn't be.

Yes the m17x would certainly be capable of running 3D modelling software as is the Area 51 ALX I have.  The i7 even has certain features which make it slightly better for such tasks(which is why its used in the Gaming industry).

Question is reliability I guess and whether I went witht he Precision I could possibly configure it to a similar system at a slightly higher premium as the Xeon's utiliseError Checking (ECC) memory which is more expensive than what the i7 can use.

A slightly more powerful Alienware is no good to me if it's sitting waiting for repairs most of the time.... *sigh*

Hi All I presently have the Alienware Area 51 ALX with the i7 overclocked to 3.7GHz, 12GB RAM and Dual ATI Radeon's in Crossfire combined with a primary SSD.   Unfortunately I've had issues with it in that the day I received it the Power Supply died and had to be replaced and now it is sitting useless (having had to connect my old Dimension) next to me seeming to have overheating problems and was not fixable yesterday (after a 2 week wait).  Tech is returning tomorrow to attempt another fix....     This leads me to several key questions that if anyone can answer I would appreciate it greatly.....   1. When the machine started to play up I found myself in the BIOS and noticed the RAM was reporting as 1333MHz.  When ringing tech support I queried this and I was ocrrect that i had inf act purchased 1600MHz RAM.  Since there is a fair difference in pirce I was a bit concerned and they advised me that the bus cannot support anything faster than 1333MHz.  Is this correct?  And would I be incorrect in beleiving that is a bit of a false sale in selling me the faster memory on a machine that is not fully capable of utilising it?   2. I have lost some faith in the Alienware machine and am considering the Precision Workstations.  I use the system mostly of 3D Modelling and graphics work (not games).  The Precision comes with Xeon processors so I'm wondering about how the two compare?  What would be an equivelant Xeon setup compared to the overclocked i7?   3. The Precision has a different range of Graphics cards.  I am thinking it is unlikely I will ever go beyond one monitor if at all past 2 so what would be best?  There is a 6GB NVidia Quadro on offer (but very expensive) or something like the 2GB ATI Radeon ProFire (not sure how that compares to the 2 HD5900's I have?).   Thanks Guys

1) Your RAM should be listed in the BIOS at 1600mhz. Check and make sure the XMP is on. If XMP is on and it still shows it at 1333mhz then change the memory multiplier to manual and set it to 1600. If it still lists it at 1333 then pop out a stick of memory and make sure it is 1600mhz and not 1333.

If your BCLK is 133 then set it to 12. 12 x 133 = 1596.

Overclocking the CPU does not mean the memory can't run over 1333.

2)Xeons are more for workstations and server farms. The i7 should be more then enough for you with its high speed and high bandwidths. There is more to it but you can google it.

3) The Quadro will be faster for rendering, a lot faster. So do you think it is worth the extra cash? Thats the real question. It could be .. its all up to you. If you need the performance then spend the money and get it.

You can compare processors at : http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

Match Xeons to i7 on speed. Xeons are more expensive because they have more on-board cache (so faster). No hyper-threading though, so you need 2 quads for 8 threads. For apps that are optimized to use all those cores, I'm sure 2 Xeons beat a single i7 (but at a $ cost). Xeon systems aren’t built to be economical, they are built to be powerful.

You don't mention how big your current monitor is (and what res.) , but I suggest you try using a second monitor as soon as possible. I'll doubt you’ll ever go back to just one. Also, try a pro. IPS monitor over an inexpensive TN if you can.

Those pro. cards are optimized for OpenGL (vs Direct-X). Check your apps to see what they like best. If they will use CUDA cores (when available) that might push you towards nVidia. OpenCL is gaining popularity though.

A nice desktop will beat a (same class and vintage) laptop any day. Only get the laptop if you need portability. Since you are not gaming, and your 3D CAD apps are likely optimized for OpenGL (vs Direct-X) I would go for the Precision (if you must get a laptop). Also, the Precisions are built better like business Latitudes (vs consumer XPS and AW models).

And if you do decide to go for a Precision laptop you may want to consider that the current M6500 model has been on the market for quite some time and is long overdue an update. For example, today most new laptops are shipping with at least 1 USB3 port which I would have thought  is something that would be most desirable for you. The M6500 doesn't have any. To me it doesn't make sense that the most expensive laptop offered by Dell doesn't offer such an important feature, especially as it is aimed at professional use where speed and productivity are paramount.

Many people have asked me why I didn't buy a Mac considering they are the standard within the graphic design industry? My motivation has to do with the need for a custom built system but Starmage, surely you are not in the same boat as I am...

I will say this, now in my 4th month of ownership of this new M17x R2 and I am having the motherboard replaced for the 2nd time today. One day I hope the machine will run reliably however, with the experience I have had so far, it's sure I can understand where you are coming from!

Hi Guys

Thanks for your input.  Unfortunately money is an issue and I can't really afford to pay much more than I did for the system I bought.  Which was the original key issue for not purchasing an equivelant Precision originally.

However, stability is of higher importance to me than pure performance which is now where i'm stuck.  I'm led to beleive the Precision is a much better system in terms of build quality and components.  While the AW I now have is not working and has not been working for 2 weeks.

The question really boils down to....

If stability and performance with an eye on money are the key factors in choosing a system (in that order) then which would be best?

If I did get a Xeon it would be the single core X6560 running at 3.33GHHz with an eye of a possible upgrade later of inserting a second chip which should assist in lengthening the life of the PC (provided the other components hold out).  The i7 I suspect will be likely outdated in a year or two and possibly facing a problem of no backqard compatibility with chipsets/sockets.

So there's a big question for me there.
I really am feeling a bit burnt by my AW.  When the PSU died some 4 hours after I plugged it in I put it down to "Well something had to happen to me one day in my computer owning life" (after 4 computes with no issues over a total of 20 years).  But now this is making me wonder and I'm feeling nervous.  I've lost faith in the machine which doesn't make it all that pleasant to use.

BTW I have the Ultrashap 27" monitor from Dell running at 1920x1200 (I think, it's running at Max res).

I originally had a 23", similar model and later bought the 27".  I tried dual monitors on my previous system as it had dual DVI.  I have a severe vision impairment and utilise a magnifier in glasses to read the screen so I have very small focal length (ie my nose almost hits the screen).  Having two monitors is simply too difficult to cover the screen real estate while remaining comfortable.  Even the 27" puses that realm of comfort. (I practically have to stand up to see the top!! lol).

Actually I've just ordered a Mac Mini...
Primarily for iPad and iPhone development but also as a backup system now.  It sure won't be powerful enough to do much other than the programming aspect but I already have the Alienware to do the other stuff (3DS Max, Paint Shop Pro etc).

I'm more of an enthusiast so money is a bigger concern because I can't gaurantee a return on my investment at this stage/

The Precision Desktop doesn't ahve USB3 either which is something of concern as in the time of owning the AW I have purchased 2 1TB USB3 drives.

In short, Precision is a no-no, at least for the time being. In fact, the most financially viable option is to stick with the AW and work with Dell to get it working as it should. Being a non-gamer, like myself, your AW should do all you require of it with a comfortable margin ...other than USB3 capability that is. And from a purely aesthetic point of view, the AW beats the pants off the Precision!

You can buy a PCIe USB-3 card for $50 and add it to any desktop.

Not sure why your AW failed early but these things happen. It was likely over-loaded for it's size (when stressed). The video card power cables could have been hooked up wrong. Maybe it just thermally shut down and wasn't really blown. Anyway, just get it fixed, hammer away on it to stress it and if it passes, start loading your programs and data back. Don't depend on it to work at first. Don't store your important data files on it locally.

If I was you, I would do this:

Get a good APC-1500 Battery Backup ($200). Just in case it's bad power causing your problems.

Remove the OverClock from the processor and/or video cards. Dependability over high benchmark scores.

Have Dell replace Power Supply with the 1100w or 1200w (some of the guys here say the 1100w is better).

Optional: Fresh install Windows 7 and Dell drivers in proper order (see Dell FAQs or my other posts on this)

Optional: Use Windows Image backup or Acronis to Image Backup here.

Load some benchmarks to stress it (Heaven, 3DMark-11) and let them run for hours. Get machine nice and hot and look for problems.

You can even try Prime95 and FurMark (but don't leave those running for too long).

Ok I better explain the environment surrounding the issue a little better as I only really gave enough info as to why I was seeking advice regarding the Xeon vs i7.  The question of the AW is a different basket altogether

Maybe I have higher standards than most but after spening the amount I did on an AW I would expect a certain level of quality (I think most people would).  I ama  Disabled Pensioner in Australia which means I have little income.  The only real reason I could justify this particular machine was that it was partly an investment in completing my degree and also had the power to assist in my undertakings for extra income (doing design visualisation, programming and eventually iPad/iPhone development).  I also justified it by believing that like my previous high end personal system from Dell it would last about 5 years with minor upgrades (ie a HD replacement and perhaps a new gfx card eventually).

After it arrived and I had two guys help me carry it up the stairs in it's original box (under my supervision) I unpacked it and set it up.  I must admit there was a big WOW factor involved there but 4 hour laters the PC was tripping the fuse box and there was a loud bang whenever I turned it on (from the power source).  I rang late on a Friday and the PSU was replaced the following Monday afternoon.  I thought this was okay and as I said previously, after 20 years of owning various systems with only minor issues occuring after their 3 year use points i put it down to it having to happen at least once in my lifetime.

I did notice a slight decrease in performance after this.  I am not sure if that is due to software installations (probably) or the original issue but startup went from very quick to taking a while.  Even my Dimension 950 running dual P4 3.4GHz can compete with startup time (8GB memory, old SATA2 HD).  Both are running Win 7 Home Premium although the Dimension is 32 bit compared to 64 bit.

I kept an eye on the readings on the AW and it had not maxedout anything.  It was running at what I would consider a fair temperature generating less heat than my Dimension (which youc an use as a Central Heating Unit!).  I haven't really put the AW through it's paces.  About the hardest its had to work is playing a Blu Ray movie.

There has beensome instability in the AW requiring more often reboots than my Dimensioin (I essentially have left them both on permenantly).  I have occasional freezes and on several occasions during shut downs the machine has gotten stuck in "Windows is Shutting Down, Please Wait" screen and I have left it for 30 minutes and have eventually had to turn it off by physically unplugging it.

2 weeks ago I sat down to my AW to find it had turned off (something unusual) and upon rebooting got stuck in the animated Windows Logo screen and would not progress any further.  Another reboot yeilded an error message "Previous overclocking failed, resetting system to defaults" (I had not touched the BIOS).  After this the computer refused to start.  2 hours later after unplugging the entire system for a while (with the upper vents stuck at about 45 degrees) I managed to get into  Windows Safe Mode.  Checked the AlienFX settings and they all seemed okay but the computer shut off after about 4 minutes without warning.  Consequent reboots have yielded similar if not more often turning off, even if I'm just in the BIOS.

I rang tech support the next day.  They informed me to reset the BIOS completely.  I got into Windows normal mode for about 4 minutes and then same result.

It then took 2 weeks for them to get a tech here with parts (apparently they were waiting for parts from Brisbane and I live in Sydney).  Tech was here on Wednesday for 2 hours and essentially completely reinserted everything but no luck.  Replaced a number of parts but now it won't even stay on for 2 minutes only averaging about 1 1/2 or 1 minute.  From what I can gather the machine is overheating quite drastically even at fairly idle processor use (ie just after startup and not doing anything).

The tech is coming back Monday with parts he ordered last Wednesday.  I am hoping this will resolve the issue.

The system is running in an air conditioned environment and is plugged into a high end power surge board (I think rated up to 200000 V).My DImension has had no issue with the same setup in terms of power.  I have hardly maxed the machine out so I doubt that is the issue either.

So I'm looking at the Precision as an alternative as after a fair bit of research I beleive it is a much more robust and reliable system.

I'm Deaf and severely vision impaired.  So it is extremely important I have a reliable machine as its my primary (actually my only) communication method as I can make phone calls through it, email etc.  I even went and bought the next business day warranty but it's not helping much.

I'm in the US, but I think this is what you need (230v and with your country's AC plugs ... but you should check or email them):

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500GI

Price is $500 AU. Here, they are $200 US. You might also see them in the office supply or electronics stores in your area.

You need this to protect your equipment, and protect the substantial investment you have made in your computer systems. Even if other items aren't broken yet, they are likely being slowly worn down and will not last as long. They test these with lightning bolts.

You might also want to get your AC power checked. The Area-51 and monitor only pull about 4-5 amps ... that should not have tripped the breaker (unless you have that wall plug overloaded with items).

Inexpensive Power strip surge protectors do almost nothing.

I don't think I would call them inexpensive... :)
I spent $300 a peice on them (a total of $900).  I think they are made by Monster Cable if I remember correctly.

The boards and powerpoints were hardly overloaded. At the time I only had the PC and monitor plugged into one board.  I tried it over 3 different boards.  Removed everything else on the board, even removed the board entirely and tried plugging it directly into the wall socket.  I even tried a different wall socket too....  All had the same effect.

Australia goes up to 480V I beleive similar to Europe.

I had an electrician in 2 weeks ago installing wall lights and ceiling fans.  He also checked the wiring and said all is good.

The Dell tech replaced the PSU and said it was faulty.  So I'm fairly happy with the boards. I don't think I can justify $500 extra for a new one.....  Even if it is to protect my investment.... :) (note that the boards have 8 plugs each, are rated up to about 200 000 V if I remember correctly and are certified by the Australian Standards.  They also have an aerial protector as I have a Pinnacle Dual DVB-T Diversity stick. )

Also when testing the boards and the computer was throwing the fuse...
I unplugged everything else on the same fuse in the house in an attempt to isolate the issue.  So I'm fairly certain I didn't overload anything....

I don't think I would call them inexpensive... :) I spent $300 a peice on them (a total of $900).  I think they are made by Monster Cable if I remember correctly.

Show me what you have or write down the model number so I can look it up.

http://www.e-hifi.com.au/monstercable.aspx

http://www.monstercable.com/

I'm not trying to talk bad about your equipment, and I don't work for APC. I do know the difference between a power strip and a proper battery backup (with isolation transformer). I have seen first hand the damage that black-outs, brown-outs, and lightning cause.

It doesn't make sense that the computer (and power supply) worked the whole time it was being setup at factory, but failed (not even normally, but dramatically) 4 hours after being connected at your house. Now the second PS is likely damaged or the PC is now shutting down because it's over-loaded (inside the PC), or because it's not getting enough good power. Or, maybe yet another part is bad now.

There is a proper way to trouble-shoot the Area-51 (and get it back into perfect working order) ... just like there is a proper way to get you back "on- track". Just trying to help.

Hi

This is it...
http://www.e-hifi.com.au/monstercable/CleanPower/av800powercentre.aspx
The AV800

It is only a power strip without battery backup but I can't afford anything much better than this.  I simply don't have the cash.