E5440 Fan Speed and Noise

This is so weird. I was stress testing my CPU and when I stopped the test the fan immediately stopped too...

coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Physical id 0:  +52.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:         +48.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:         +51.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)

i8k-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
Right Fan:      0 RPM

I always had the impression that it behaved strangely/inconsistently and now I'm getting more proof that it is...

It seems like when its starting from a low temperature activation that it will stay on a lot longer? Idk. I'll need to stpend more time on this and I'm not sure if I feel like it after dealing with so much *** from Dell..

curbedlarry, can you try the same thing? do something that brings you in the ~55C temp and stop the process and monitor thte fan speed.

Interesting, I didn't think of the ambient temp sensor. That might explain it... On my E6440 theres a chip right next to the CPU that is passively cooled could that be part of the problem? Have you tried to get Shawn or someone else to raise it as a bug? It seems to be misbehaving or not working as intended so I'll go as far as considering it as such...

Sometimes when the room and machine are cool then my fan will come on for a few seconds and stops.

The "ambient" temperature sensor plays a major role in controlling things and can only be seen through the BIOS.  I've seen someone from Dell claim this sensor is used because of Intel TurboBoost and to avoid lots of short bursts of fan.  Fair enough but other manufacturers handle it so much better and with less-annoying variable fan speeds.

My guess is before CPU heat has soaked through the whole machine/chassis this sensor stays cool and only a burst of CPU activity/heat will trigger the fan.

Problem is once the whole machine is warm this ambient sensor is always above its fan-off threshold and needs to drop to that almost impossible level before the fan will be cut.  Doesn't matter what the other temps are, the ambient sensor has to hit that target or the fan stays on.

Basically the rules to control the fan are too basic and haven't been tested in real long-term running conditions.

They also couldn't be bothered to offer multiple modes selectable through the BIOS or OS.  What incredibly lazy engineering from what is one of the leading PC makers in the world.

I've also wasted a ridiculous number of hours investigating the fan behaviour and trying to get it improved.  I should have just sold it at a huge loss and bought something better :emotion-6:

Yes I'm pretty convinced now that these temperature thresholds have been set when the machines are fairly cool and heat hasn't soaked its way through the whole chassis to wherever this sensor is (no idea where).

Shawn B has been following and replying to my other thread and I've posted my theory there.

I'm still hoping Dell will take on board my feedback, not just for my sanity but all the other people with recent Dell machines that won't shut up!

I can report as well that the fan control seems to be totally different on battery power. A lot less fan action, even when the machine is considerably warmer than on the docking station.

Also I've noticed that when the cpu is properly warm the fan speed alternates between fast and super fast, periodically every few seconds. THAT is properly annoying!

I can for example - if I want a silent machine - basically not keep iTunes running because it generates about 20-30% cpu load constantly (no idea why, that's a different matter) which causes enough heat in the cpu for the fan to be blowing constantly...

Not much help this post, just letting you know, I'm still here... :)

Btw: I'm running SSDs both as a system drive as well as in the optical drive compartment.

Hi curbedlarry,

coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Physical id 0:  +41.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:         +37.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:         +41.0°C  (high = +84.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)

i8k-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
Right Fan:   2586 RPM

So... incredibly... annoying.

Do you know that you can manually stop the fan by pressing Fn + Z (only when it's not a full speed/not too hot.)

It will stay off after pressing Fn + Z in some cases (looks like its when it should have reached the shut off temperature). or start again if its still too warm...

not sure why thats happening though...

maybe theres more going on here than (still presuming..) the ambient sensor?

Also try to get them to fix the fan that you're using right now... these computers should be in a lab.

adding profiles its not helping us if theres another issue at play here...

If the promised power management update actually works and allows users to select different behaviours (active, passive, quiet, cool, etc) with different thresholds then it could solve this. Not holding my breath though and the cheap fan is still massively louder than those HP use.

Unfortunately for me, the 2012 E5530 does not even have a switch which would allow the BIOS to hand over control to the user; meaning there will never be user-defined controls!

The least I can ask for is a BIOS update with a proper fan profile.

It will stay off after pressing Fn + Z in some cases (looks like its when it should have reached the shut off temperature). or start again if its still too warm... not sure why thats happening though...

Sadly that never works for me with my external USB keyboard.

Makes perfect sense though, Fn+Z is stopping and resetting the fan control. If the temps are above their ON level then the fan will restart.

There are two basic issues with how Dell are doing fan control on laptops (there are complaints about almost every machine they make):

1. Using the ambient temp sensor as a major controller (rather than a threshold modifier)
2. Selecting too low fixed thresholds not taking into account heatsoak through the machine over time

The second issue is by far the worst.  I believe using the ambient sensor could be made to work but requires a far more complex algorithm to vary fan speed and vary the ON-OFF thresholds.

Battery power is a red herring I think, I did a longer test and after the heat built up the behaviour became just as bad as when docked.

If the promised power management update actually works and allows users to select different behaviours (active, passive, quiet, cool, etc) with different thresholds then it could solve this. Not holding my breath though and the cheap fan is still massively louder than those HP use.

Right now everybody is stuck with a set of fan thresholds that are designed for when the whole laptop/chassis is stone cold... Once it warms up they are totally inappropriate and resulting in an unstoppable fan, even when all the major components are at safe temperatures.

The final insult to customers is totally blocking access to control the fan yourself :emotion-39:

Try with your internal keyboard.

What I'm saying is that pressing Fn + Z will sometimes stop the fan so it makes me believe that it should have stopped by itself if its not restarting a second after...

If it's caused by the ambient sensor why wouldn't the fan restart after pressing Fn + Z, the readings from the sensor shouldn't change after a fn+z?

Battery power is a red herring I think, I did a longer test and after the heat built up the behaviour became just as bad as when docked.

I tried on battery again and made sure that it wasn't charging so I'm not sure why it's always on (or almost always... I'm not closely monitoring the fan/thermal like you did).

If the promised power management update actually works and allows users to select different behaviours (active, passive, quiet, cool, etc) with different thresholds then it could solve this. Not holding my breath though and the cheap fan is still massively louder than those HP use.

I tried the profiles for a few minutes on Windows and my impression was that it didn't change much if anything... I'll have to test more carefully..

The final insult to customers is totally blocking access to control the fan yourself :emotion-39:

Yea they're moving in that direction...

from shawn:

"I'm actually working with Lawrence on a few fan concerns already. While some of our new systems simply cannot have fan configuration options (per our engineers) we are working to make sure, all that can, will have an update in the next BIOS cycle in July to make sure this functionality is active in the BIOS for CCTK and thermal management control within the OS."

Also I've requested doc. and I'll let you know if I get anything back

"No word back from our engineers on the documentation i've requested. Requests like this may need to go through the ODMs and can have an unpredictable turn around.."

cheers

What I'm saying is that pressing Fn + Z will sometimes stop the fan so it makes me believe that it should have stopped by itself if its not restarting a second after... If it's caused by the ambient sensor why wouldn't the fan restart after pressing Fn + Z, the readings from the sensor shouldn't change after a fn+z?

If Fn+Z stops the fan it means the temps are below the ON threshold but above the OFF threshold.  The thresholds for switching off are about 20C lower!  The reset just tells it to stop trying to reach the lower OFF threshold and pretend the fan was never on.

Good to know they are looking at it.  Even if new modes are available with slightly increased thresholds it could make a huge difference.

Right now when the machines are hot the fan can't actually reach the cut-off level unless you stop using the machine and wait a long time.  Whatever their fan test scenarios are they aren't an accurate reflection of real world usage.

The thresholds for switching off are about 20C lower!  The reset just tells it to stop trying to reach the lower OFF threshold and pretend the fan was never on.

Ah not sure why I didn't think of that... :s

Good to know they are looking at it.  Even if new modes are available with slightly increased thresholds it could make a huge difference.

Well it's better than no option but we're not even sure what the profiles are doing (could disable turbo boost as an example instead of simply changing the on/off thresholds)

If their algorithm/how they decide when to on/off the fan is flawed what we'll get will probably be inadequate so I encourage you to try to get Shawn to open a bug about it...

I think that it's pretty clear that it's misbehaving or isn't working as it should anyway...

If they plan to release an update in July thats what I'll try to do ... bugs should be prioritized over feature request

Right now when the machines are hot the fan can't actually reach the cut-off level unless you stop using the machine and wait a long time.  Whatever their fan test scenarios are they aren't an accurate reflection of real world usage.

Yeah theres a few other issues that I've mentioned that makes me believe that not a lot of testing goes into making and supporting these notebooks.. but im starting to repeat myself here... ;p

Given 20 people with brand new 2015 XPS 13 machines have already made it to this forum to complain about fan control and noise, Dell clearly has a major problem in this area!

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3518/t/19617192

The theory that the ambient temperature sensor is a major factor seems to be right.
I'm reinstalling a number of E5430s right now and they all show the same behaviour: fan starts from 0 to almost full speed, blows for maybe two seconds and then speeds down again. Over and over again, on multiple machines...

Our E7240 are also blowing their fans at at least 75% most of the time as well, without beeing very hot...

Hi,

I received this PM from Shawn yesterday:

"Thankfully our BIOS engineers took immediate notice of the thermal issues reported on those forums. While not all systems will be effected by the July BIOS update the running behavior and thermal control management discussed in those threads should be improved in the BIOS released in the July block. "

So let's be hopeful eh?

Yes some hope that Dell is taking this seriously.  Does worry me though that many people were complaining about these issues 2 years ago, on the E5430 for example.

Dell engineers should be forced to use their latest laptops all day... BIOS and drivers issues would soon be fixed!

Done my best to remain constructive and provide evidence on how fan control could be greatly improved.  Have hopefully contributed to improving things on my and other machines.

The other issues I've had are minor/forgivable but a noisy fan that keeps running ruins the experience of what is otherwise an excellent laptop.