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November 30th, 2018 10:00
New docking station design
I'm sorry but I really do not like the new Dell docking station units.
First off having users plug and unplug this cable into their laptop or tablet is clumsy and haphazard. I'm honestly surprised my users haven't broken either the plug or the USB-C port on their devices yet with this.
Second, it really feels like a hub and not a dock. Where the heck do we put this thing? The whole deal really takes up a lot of space on their desk and just doesn't look clean.
Third, it is really annoying to have such fewer video out options that we used to get with the E-Docks and it lacks consistency with your desktop PC's. What is wrong with two fullsize DisplayPort outputs and a VGA out for backup? I had to buy a bunch of HDMI cables AND mini-DP cables for all my dual monitor users.
Finally, the WD-15 docks in particular have been very unreliable for us. Even after firmware updates I still have issues with monitors not coming on when reconnecting, the computer not powering on when connected if it is sleeping, sometimes USB devices aren't detected and I have to disconnect then reconnect, and some users report occasional issues with their monitor just going blank for a few seconds then coming back.
This new dock system is just terrible and needs a lot of refinement. I realize USB-C is the way to go and that is wonderful, but you've got to make a better product for your business and enterprise customers. We have enough issues with Windows 10 we don't need hardware problems and annoyances as well. I've always in general really liked Dell products but this dock is really killing that for me.
I hope to see a much better docking station come from Dell. What would be really cool is a flexible dock that actually "holds" your laptops and tablets, allows use with display lid or keyboard cover in closed position for those with dedicated monitors and also converts to allow the device's display to be used. Something that doesn't make it feel like you are going to break something every time you connect and reconnect. Something that doesn't take up so much on my desk, and has flexible connectivity options.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
jphughan
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November 30th, 2018 16:00
The WD15 and TB16 have definitely had their share of reliability issues and attendant firmware/software updates, in fact the TB16 was itself a replacement for an earlier TB15 model that got completely recalled. The situation is getting better on that front, but it's still not bulletproof. A lot of the reason for that is because the docks use a fundamentally different design. The old E-Docks and their predecessors were essentially just wiring extensions, i.e. all of the chips for the audio, network, etc. ports were built into the system itself. That's why the dock required no additional drivers and why the E-Dock connector had 200+ pins -- because every pin on all of those connectors (with the possible exception of USB, where the dock may have had a built-in hub?) was essentially being extended into the pins on the dock. With USB-C/TB3 docks, there are network and audio chips and such in the dock itself. The advantage is that you can use those functions even with laptops that (for example) don't have wired Ethernet built into them. The downside of course is that they're more complicated and therefore more expensive and more difficult to make reliable.
As for placement though, I guess it depends on which dimension you're looking at, but the WD15 is narrower and shorter than the E-Dock, especially the E-Dock Plus. Yes it's a bit deeper, but I actually LOVE that I'm not forced to have the dock as a "rear extension" of my laptop anymore. Now I can keep the dock wherever it makes sense to have all of my peripheral cables connect, and I can move the laptop around on my desk independently -- just as I normally would if I only needed a USB hub, for example. If I want my laptop right up next to me with the display open, easy. If I want it off to the side with the display closed, that's fine too. But I don't have to drag the dock around with my laptop. With the E-Dock, the entire "assembly" had to move around as a unit, so you effectively had to keep your laptop in one place. And when I don't have a laptop sitting on my desk, the WD15 takes up much LESS space than an E-Dock because the E-Dock had a whole protrusion that was meant to sit under the laptop. Anyhow, I don't understand what you're envisioning a "flexible dock" would add to what the WD15 already allows. What you're describing sounds like it would be larger, and I don't see how it would allow more flexible use of a laptop that is currently only tethered by a single flexible cable.
Also, the fact that the industry has moved to a standardized connector is great for people who have laptops from different vendors. My wife uses her WD15 with a personal Dell laptop and a work Lenovo laptop. With the old setup, she'd have needed two separate, large docks permanently taking up space on her desk and would then have to swap display, audio, and USB cables between the docks for whichever she wanted to use -- or else spend even more money and desk space on a KVM switch. So this is a big improvement there.
As for the cable "fragility", I really don't understand that complaint. The plastic portion of the dock-side connector is already much longer than most other connectors you'd plug into your system. Yes, the part that actually inserts into the connector is shallow, but you can thank an industry focused on ever thinner, lighter, and smaller devices for that. The USB-C connector was designed to be used even on very small devices. Still, I've never come close to knocking a cable out, and even if I did, I don't really see how anything could break. The cable itself has a lot of reinforcement built into it, and it releases from the system pretty easily, so I don't see how the system would get damaged.
The video output options I can sort of understand, although in fairness, DisplayPort daisy-chaining is becoming more popular, which allows you to have multiple displays driven from a single connection to a PC/dock. And Dell is pretty good about bundling a variety of cables with its own displays, so that helps if you're invested in their ecosystem. The TB16 somehow added full-size DP to the existing complement of mini-DP, HDMI, and VGA, for what it's worth. I suspect one possible issue was that if they added a bunch more ports, people who don't read documentation would assume that more displays can be driven simultaneously. There are already people asking why their WD15 can't drive dual 1440p displays or triple 1080p displays as it is. But on the other hand, the benefit of a standardized connector is that if you don't like Dell's dock offering, you can find a third-party vendor that makes a dock you DO like and use that instead. With the E-Dock, you had no such freedom.
gregom
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December 31st, 2018 10:00
All good points but I still don't care for having the USB-C cable sticking out the side of the laptop/tablet. If there was a 90-degree connection that might be better, but it does feel awfully fragile and just looks and feels clumsy.
I still stand by my statement of video output options. It would just be nice for them to be consistent with their desktops, because as of right now I have to change out cables just to switch a user to/from a mobile or desktop system.
I'm just saying it could be designed to be a lot friendlier.
As for a dynamic docking station, i'm thinking some sort of contraption that is adjustable in size to fit both laptops and tablets, in vertical (lid closed configuration) or display view-able configuration. I'd draw my concept if I had time but hopefully you understand what i'm getting at.
Anyway thanks for responding. I just came to gripe and hope some of the engineers and designers at Dell consider some of my thoughts in their upcoming products.
DAF44
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December 31st, 2018 12:00
gregom
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January 11th, 2019 12:00
DAF44
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January 11th, 2019 13:00
@gregomwrote:
"I hope to see a much better docking station come from Dell. What would be really cool is a flexible dock that actually "holds" your laptops and tablets, allows use with display lid or keyboard cover in closed position for those with dedicated monitors and also converts to allow the device's display to be used. Something that doesn't make it feel like you are going to break something every time you connect and reconnect. Something that doesn't take up so much on my desk, and has flexible connectivity options."
You always have the option to use a USB-C / Thunderbolt dock made by Dell, HP, Lenovo, Targus and many others to meet your needs. Definitively when on the move.
As you explain it, an updated E dock or something similar is the best solution for an office environment.
jphughan
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January 11th, 2019 14:00
I consider it pretty convenient that I can use my Dell system with USB-C/TB3 docks made by other vendors, and my wife considers it pretty convenient that she can have also have a single USB-C dock and switch between using it with both my Dell and Lenovo laptops rather than having each brand's proprietary dock taking up space on her desk and then having to either swap cables between docks or give up even more cash and desk space for a KVM solution. I also personally like that I can pull my laptop forward on my desk when I want to without having to drag a rigidly attached dock along with it. So I disagree that this is less convenient. And USB-C/TB3 are industry-wide standards. It's not like Dell went off and developed some new less expensive proprietary connector to increase profit. And in the specific case of Thunderbolt 3, I actually doubt it's actually less expensive, and TB3 opens up use cases that simply weren't possible with older docks, such as eGPUs and external NVMe SSD enclosures.
styopa
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September 16th, 2019 12:00
The convenience of the other, previous mechanical docks was that you could literally just drop your laptop into them and hit the power button - done.
Now with the new hub "docks" I have to plug in the USB Type-C, then the power cord (laptop doesn't get enough power from the hub to run) then open the laptop, hit the power switch, close the laptop. That's a pain only SLIGHTLY less bad than simply having to plug all the stuff in without the hub/dock.
Finally, I know with at least some ehubs or whatever they're called, they actually run a separate video card in the hub meaning my great dell G7 laptop WON'T RUN THE GPU to an external monitor through it. That's just great.
Further, to be able to close the laptop and not run 2 monitors simultaneously, I have to disable the 'sleep on cover closed' which then means when I'm OTHERWISE using the laptop, that won't happen.
No...unless I'm missing something (always possible) these new hub/docs stink on many levels.
jphughan
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September 16th, 2019 21:00
You are indeed missing something -- multiple things, actually. The majority of your complaints about the new docks vs. the older E-Docks stem from the fact that you're using the new docks with an Inspiron G Series system. That's not an entirely fair comparison because the older systems in that product line never supported the E-Dock you're comparing against. If you had used the new docks with a Latitude or Precision system, whose predecessors actually DID work with an E-Dock, then that would have been a fair comparison, and much of what you said wouldn't have applied in that setup. Details below:
1. The new docks have a Power button that acts as an external system Power button, just like the E-Dock -- so you don’t have to open the lid to power the system on while it’s docked. If that button isn't working on your system, it's because your system doesn't support an external power button, but that's a system issue, not a dock issue. And that limitation only exists in product lines that never supported the E-Dock you're comparing against, like the Inspiron G Series system you apparently have. So now you have a dock option for that system that might be imperfect, but previously you would have had no dock option at all. If you were using a Latitude or Precision system, that button would work and you wouldn't need to open the lid to power on the system.
2. Dell docks can supply a max of 60W-130W for single port USB-C/TB3 systems (depending on dock model), or up to 210W for dual port USB-C/TB3 systems. If your system doesn’t support being charged over USB-C, then once again that’s a system issue, not a dock issue, and once again that limitation applies to systems whose predecessors wouldn't have supported the E-Dock. To my knowledge, every current generation of a system whose predecessors actually DID support the E-Dock can be charged from the new USB-C/TB3 docks, as long as you use an appropriate dock model for the system in question.
3. No docks have GPUs built into them. The issue you're thinking of pertains to the Dxxxx dock models like the D6000, which use DisplayLink technology rather than tapping into native GPU outputs. With those docks, a limitation in Windows means that multi-GPU systems can’t use the discrete GPU to accelerate content being shown on dock displays. Only the primary GPU can be used with those displays, which will be the Intel GPU in those systems. But those docks also make it possible to use a docking station with systems that don’t support “regular” docking stations at all, including systems that only have regular USB ports rather than any native video output connectors. So again, yes that can be an annoying limitation, but that type of dock still gives you an option where you otherwise would have had none. If you have a system that supports a "real" docking station, then you don't have to use this kind of dock.
4. The lid close behavior you described at the end of your post isn't unique to the new docks. It worked the same way on the E-Docks, in that if your Lid Close Action was set to Sleep, then that system would sleep if you closed the lid even if it was docked to an E-Dock. The difference is that you could wake the system back up using the dock's Power button and it would then resume while its lid was still closed, because the Sleep command is only processed when the lid transitions from open to closed, not "enforced" while it's closed. But since your specific system apparently can’t use the dock's Power button, you’re encountering this “problem”. But again, that’s a system issue, not a dock issue -- and also again, you’re complaining about behavior with an Inspiron system as compared to an E-Dock even though the earlier systems in the product line you're using never actually supported E-Docks. If you were instead using a Latitude or Precision system, the dock’s Power button would work, so your lid behavior would also work like the E-Dock setup.
Bottom line: Your rightful gripe with Dell is that they didn't implement full support for docking stations in their Inspiron G Series line, not that the new docks are far worse than the E-Docks.
jphughan
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September 17th, 2019 08:00
@styopa I meant to mention you in my reply above but forgot, and I'm not sure mentions go through if they're added in an edit. Anyhow, I thought you might find the information I posted above illuminating.
styopa
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September 17th, 2019 09:00
Thanks for the reply, although I have to disagree with you on a number of points.
1. The new docks have a Power button
Mine doesn't. It is a D6000. (https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-universal-dock-d6000/apd/452-bcyt/pc-accessories) When I bought the system, this was the 'docking station' I was offered by Dell's website. There is no power button.
2. Dell docks can supply anywhere from 60W to 130W for single port USB-C systems
Again, this was the recommended dock from Dell. It supports 130W through a single fixed cable out to USB-C. The G7 comes with a 180W power cord, and if I attempt to either a) run off hub power or b) run 180w through the hub, I get the (essentially) bluescreen that says "YOU'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH POWER". Are you asserting that I can connect another USB-C cord and get the 180W through? I'd suspect that's a sketchy idea.
3. No docks have GPUs built into them. You’re thinking of the Dxxxx dock models like the D6000, which use DisplayLink technology rather than tapping into native GPU outputs.
Well there you go, the one I have; again this is the one THEY suggested.
With those docks, a limitation in WINDOWS means that multi-GPU systems can’t use the discrete GPU to accelerate content. They can only use the primary GPU, which will be the Intel GPU in those systems. But those docks also make it possible to use a docking station with systems that don’t support “regular” docking stations at all, such as systems that only have regular USB ports. So again, yes that can be an annoying limitation, but you still have a docking station option where you otherwise would have had none.
Yes, maybe it is a limitation in Windows...did that surprise Dell? Did they not expect that the vast majority of systems were going to be running Windows, really?
Please remember that the target of my post wasn't complaining particularly about THIS system, it was that Dell has (apparently) abandoned hard-docking systems entirely in favor of ehubs. Formerly I could drop my previous Dells (several generations, actually) into the hard dock and hit the power button and that's it - it worked. The fact that Dell deliberately designed systems to no longer use this eminently convenient and simple system is my point. Why build AWAY from a convenient system?
4. The lid behavior you described worked the same way on the E-Docks. If your lid close action was set to Sleep, then the system would sleep if you closed the lid even if it was docked.
Well of course you could have the same behavior if you set it up that way. The point with the previous hard docking systems was that cover-close behavior was irrelevant (because you didn't HAVE to open the cover to turn the bloody thing on). Drop the closed, off laptop in the dock. Hit the dock power button. System comes alive. Cover close behavior settings could be left at "sleep when closed" or whatever, so that when one wasn't working with the dock (ie on the road) one could rely on the system to sleep when the cover was closed, in this example. With this current system precisely because of the lack of an external power button, I HAVE to open the cover to turn the thing on, which means that if I want to avoid constantly switching cover-sleep settings every time I'm not at my desk, I have to leave the cover OPEN a little and functionally run 2 monitors which increases heat and reduces performance in the famously-hot G7s anyway.
jphughan
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September 17th, 2019 11:00
@styopa ok, then I will amend my previous statement. Your gripes mostly pertain to the D6000, but that experience should not be generalized to all "new docks" that use USB-C/TB3, because the other models do not share those limitations. For example, Dell also offers the following USB-C/TB3 docks:
WD15
TB16
TB18DC
WD19
WD19TB
WD19DC
All of the above dock models have a Power button that can control the attached system. All of them also allow the discrete GPU to be used because they tap into native GPU outputs available on USB-C/TB3 rather than using DisplayLink. So that's two major gripes that get eliminated right off the bat. As of this writing, you have the ONLY model out of Dell's entire USB-C/TB3 dock lineup that has those two limitations.
That leaves power. The D6000 only provides up to 60W. All of the above docks support providing up to 130W when ordered with the appropriate wattage power supply. The dock models ending with "DC" can carry up to 210W because they connect to systems using a connector that has two USB-C/TB3 connectors built in. Unfortunately, your system only has a single USB-C/TB3 port and requires a 180W power supply, which means none of the current dock models would be able to power it because the industry wide USB PD spec currently maxes out at 100W. Dell did something proprietary to stretch that to 130W over a single cable, but even that wouldn't be enough. But again, you're looking at a system that never had any docking station options in its earlier generations. For the system lines that DID have docking options and required more power, Dell created the "DC" dock models and designed the systems with two USB-C/TB3 ports to be able to draw the required power from the docking connector.
I'm sorry that Dell recommended a dock that probably wasn't ideal for your purposes or system. That might have been because the external Power button on those docks wouldn't work specifically with your Inspiron system and Dell didn't want to get questions about why the Power button on their "recommended dock" didn't work with that system. In that case, there simply isn't a perfect dock choice for that system -- but again, Inspirons simply aren't designed with docking stations in mind. The last Inspiron model I remember supporting a docking station was back in 2004 -- since then, until USB-C/TB3 came around, they didn't support true docking stations at all. But in any case, all of the above docks would absolutely allow the GPU to be used.
And as for DisplayLink and the Windows limitation, it's not that Dell didn't think most people would be using Windows. It's that the dock is designed for a different use case. The benefit to DisplayLink is that it allows you to connect more displays than your GPU supports running directly. For example, Intel GPUs currently support only 3 simultaneous independent displays. With DisplayLink, you can run up to 10 more displays without any of them counting against that limit. And thanks to DisplayLink compression, the D6000 all on its own can run triple external 4K displays over a single, regular USB connection. Triple external 4K displays driven directly by the GPU wouldn't be possible even over a single Thunderbolt 3 connection today. The D6000 is also billed as a universal dock, and there isn't a universal standard for an external Power button, which might be why it lacks one. So the D6000 has its use cases -- they're just not the right ones for your needs, apparently. The D6000 also has its tradeoffs. So as with most things in life, it's important to pick the right product for your needs.
But again, it's dangerous to generalize to "all ehubs" based on your experience with a single model and a single system, even if that dock was recommended to you for that system, however inappropriately. (It would also have been helpful to specify which dock you were using in the first place.)
jphughan
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September 17th, 2019 13:00
@styopa to your point about the relative convenience, that again depends on use cases. Yes, the old setup allowed you to just drop a system onto a dock and off you went. It also meant that you could only use those docks with the specific Dell systems that had the required connector, and you could only use those "dockable" Dell systems specifically with Dell docks.
By comparison, USB-C/TB3 docks use an industry standard connector, which means that Dell docks can now be used with non-Dell systems, and Dell systems can be used with non-Dell docks. My wife has an XPS 13 for personal use, a Lenovo ThinkPad for work, and a home office setup on her desk that includes dual displays, a keyboard, and a mouse. Thanks to the fact that both systems have USB-C rather than requiring proprietary docks, she has a Dell WD15 dock that works perfectly with both systems -- except the Power button doesn't work with the ThinkPad, but that's again because there's currently no industry standard for an external Power button. But under the old system, she would've had to devote space on her desk to keeping both Dell and Lenovo docks and move display and USB cables between them depending on which system she wanted to use with her home office setup -- or else buy a fairly expensive KVM switch. I also have a friend who appreciates that he can use his Dell system with a non-Dell dock that he liked better than anything Dell offered at the time. And I personally find that I prefer the much smaller footprint of the WD15 compared to the older E-Dock and the fact that having a cable connection means I can move my system around on my desk independently of the dock rather than having the system's position rigidly dictated by where the dock is. All of those situations are MORE convenient than the previous system would have allowed.
So it's not fair to say that this transition is a shift away from convenience. The variety of dock models with different capabilities, which is partly because USB-C ports have different variations in the features that are actually implemented on any given system, certainly makes for a more confusing and decidedly less convenient ecosystem. But the new world order also has upsides that never existed in the previous architecture.