"I have went through boards and it appears that when the SSD and a Normal HDD is set in RAID mode in Bios that the system configures the SSD as a cache drive."
I don't know where you read that but it is not true. The system does not configure anything useless you do it. You can have the SSD be the boot drive and use the HDD for additional store.
I don't know enough to answer your other questions.
Thank you for answering none of my questions and pointing out that the PC will not do anything without correct input from the idiot (Me). That would be the reason I joined the forum to get input from users much more versed in the Dell XPS 8910 which has not even been delivered to me yet.
I apologize if I offended you. You stated "HDD is set in RAID mode in Bios that the system configures the SSD as a cache drive". I took that to mean if you set SATA Operation in the BIOS to RAID that somehow the "system" configures the SSD. I didn't count you as part of the "system", by "system" I thought you meant the BIOS or Intel Rapid Storage Technology (RST) and somehow this was an automatic result of setting RAID mode. .
I have a Dell XPS 8910. I have has it over two years. I have added two SSDs to it along with the original HDD that came with it.
Perhaps I didn't answer your questions, but I wanted to correct the statement about what may have appeared on the message boards.
Is the 512 GB SSD going to be the boot drive? In that case, why would you even need a cache drive? Typical cache SSDs are 32 GB and cache a HDD for extra speed. A boot SSD likely has all the speed you need without a cache.
Install the OS and your apps on that 512 GB SSD and use the 2 hard drives for storage.
A question you're going to need answered is if that SSD is the boot drive, can you still set up the 2 HDD data drives in RAID1.
Why not just install some backup software that automatically backs up (images) one of the two HDDs onto the other one on a set schedule so you don't have to think about it? Might be easier than the configuration you're proposing...
a SSD caching prerequisite is that the OS MUST be installed on the spinning disk and the SSD should be EMPTY, not even formatted or partitioned. The video on the site showed only a maximum of 64GB on the SSD can be used for caching, the rest can be partitioned and used for data storage. So SSD caching may be worthwhile if you have a very small SSD, but with a SSD large enough to support the OS and more there appears to be no advantage.
I like the idea of the SSD just for boot and make the 2 - HDD's for storage. I would however like the 2 HDD as a RAID 1 array even if a 3rd party Raid controller is required as the backup solution can be problematic. I am building this system for my brother in law and he has a tendency to play around and break stuff. He is using this rig solely for Music and pictures. Did I mention I live 1800 miles away from him so eyes on PC if issues arrive will be by teamviewer only. A Raid 1 array would ease his mind (as well as mine), I could figure out how to make sure Windows writes for all documents, music and videos would automatically go to Raid array drives. This way should he mess something up with Windows all I would need to do is get a reimaged windows 10 boot image restored to a new SSD and send it to him and he wouldn't have to restore the 2 TB plus of music and pictures he already has.
I agree the caching drive doesn't make as much sense now. The only benefit is if I used it and built a Raid 1 array and allowed Windows OS to install on the Array as well as content. I would then have to get a 3rd 4 TB drive and tell him to replace one of the Raid drives every 30 days or so and put the one he just pulled in a safe location until next month. I am using 4TB Seagate drives that are 7200 RPM with 256MB cache so Raid array performance should be acceptable with a 64 GB cache for the Raid array..
@I didnt do it I am not very familiar with RAID 1 but I did some reading and I understand that one disadvantage is that since RAID 1 mirrors the drives it also mirrors the errors. For example, if you accidentally delete a file it will be delete on the mirrored drive also. So unless you have a separate backup strategy I think an automatic scheduled backups as @RoHe suggested is better. With automatic backups you may wish to also do incremental backups so that work in progress does not get lost.
That is the main weakness of having the OS on the same drive as the Raid 1 Array. Ideally I would have OS on a different drive (SSD) and the Storage drive would be my Raid 1 array. The biggest advantage of Raid 1 would be instant backups. Rebuilding an OS drive would be relatively minor compared to restoring all the music and pictures. However 4 TB drives are 100 bucks and as long as he faithfully pulled and replaced one drive in the array each month or so he would always have a true restore that would never be less than a month old. If he did it on a more frequent schedule that would be even better. Should the system get corrupted all he would do is pull both drives and boot with the backup drive. Once the system is up he would put in one of the corrupted drives and it would mirror to the operating drive that he had just inserted. It would be nice to have a drive tray that had hot swap hard drives but not possible unless I could afford to get him all SSD storage as there is only one 5.25 bay on the system and that would require giving up DVD drive. There are 4 slot hot swap SSD cages with trays that only take 1 5.25 slot but it takes at least 2 5.25 slots for cages for systems with 3.5 drives.
Your plan to have another hard drive which serves as a backup and is updated once a month or more does mitigate the problem but you could still lose a month of work or whatever work that was done since the last backup. The big pro for RAID is the ability to protect your data in real time. You just have to weigh the pros and cons and determine which solution is best for your situation.
Why not just use external USB hard drives or NAS for backup storage?
Swapping one HDD out of a RAID1 every ~30 days is ridiculous. Every time you swap the drive you're going to have to rebuild the RAID1. That's likely to take more time than just using automated software to back up on a schedule, either to an internal HDD, USB HDDs or to a NAS.
If you use 2 (or more) USB drives you can alternate your backups. On day 1, use USB drive #1, day 2 use USB #2 etc. That way you'll always have the latest backup and the next previous backup available.
And are you sure you can set up RAID1 for 2 HDDs in this PC, if an SSD is the boot drive?
I think you have both talked me into doing some type of scheduled backups to an external USB / NAS drive, I just received the Dell XPS 8910 this morning and the process to just pull a hard drive tray while elegant to me is probably a little more than he will want to do. This would be a case where the old plastic HD carrier would be appreciated. I have decided to try and assemble and run with the SSD Cache (Intel RST) and purchased a Corsair NVMe 120 GB M.2 X4 SSD drive for the 64 GB cache maximum limit for RST. Everthing I read says I should be able to use the X4 slot for the RST cache drive. I will try to configure RAID 1 for the HDD's. I don't have the drives yet but they should be here Tuesday. From what I understand you need to load OS on HDD (Raid 1 hopefully) and only then can you load the RST software and use the M.2 SSD as a cache drive. Thank you both for bouncing ideas that made me think. I am sure I will have challenges but the board has been extremely helpful.
There is one SATA cable and it is a 90 degree cable, I have a Micro Center near me so I will pick up a few more before the HD's get here. I am a PBX tech and RAID 1 array has been critical in providing redundancy and keeping the PBX up if one drive in the array fails. That is my reason for going with the RAID 1 HDD array. The Intel RST cache should greatly improve write speeds to the conventional HDD's and because it is a NVMe M.2 SSD it should have throughput of 2000 MB /S in the X4 slot. Much faster than the conventional HDD's array will be able to write but will improve normal Windows experience greatly. I also ordered a 32 GB (4X8) Corsair Vengeance memory kit because when I received the barebones it only had one 16 GB DDR4 Dimm. Never could understand why people don't install DImm's in matched pairs Altogether I should have a screaming PC for less than 700 bucks with some redundancy built in.
I hope your RAID 1 setup works out for you. When you install your new hard drives you will need SATA data cables. I recommend that you purchase ones with a right-angled connector because a straight connector to the hard drive may interfere with closing the side panel. Look at the SATA data cable that comes with your Dell.
Vic384
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3.2K Posts
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September 26th, 2019 13:00
"I have went through boards and it appears that when the SSD and a Normal HDD is set in RAID mode in Bios that the system configures the SSD as a cache drive."
I don't know where you read that but it is not true. The system does not configure anything useless you do it. You can have the SSD be the boot drive and use the HDD for additional store.
I don't know enough to answer your other questions.
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 26th, 2019 14:00
VIC384
Thank you for answering none of my questions and pointing out that the PC will not do anything without correct input from the idiot (Me). That would be the reason I joined the forum to get input from users much more versed in the Dell XPS 8910 which has not even been delivered to me yet.
Vic384
4 Operator
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3.2K Posts
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September 26th, 2019 15:00
I apologize if I offended you. You stated "HDD is set in RAID mode in Bios that the system configures the SSD as a cache drive". I took that to mean if you set SATA Operation in the BIOS to RAID that somehow the "system" configures the SSD. I didn't count you as part of the "system", by "system" I thought you meant the BIOS or Intel Rapid Storage Technology (RST) and somehow this was an automatic result of setting RAID mode. .
I have a Dell XPS 8910. I have has it over two years. I have added two SSDs to it along with the original HDD that came with it.
Perhaps I didn't answer your questions, but I wanted to correct the statement about what may have appeared on the message boards.
RoHe
10 Elder
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45.2K Posts
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September 26th, 2019 17:00
Is the 512 GB SSD going to be the boot drive? In that case, why would you even need a cache drive? Typical cache SSDs are 32 GB and cache a HDD for extra speed. A boot SSD likely has all the speed you need without a cache.
Install the OS and your apps on that 512 GB SSD and use the 2 hard drives for storage.
A question you're going to need answered is if that SSD is the boot drive, can you still set up the 2 HDD data drives in RAID1.
Why not just install some backup software that automatically backs up (images) one of the two HDDs onto the other one on a set schedule so you don't have to think about it? Might be easier than the configuration you're proposing...
Vic384
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3.2K Posts
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September 26th, 2019 18:00
Here is the answer to two of your questions:
"Does the SSD cache drive have to be in the M2 slot or can it be just any conventional SSD drive?" SSD caching is not restricted to M.2 or SATA SSDs.
"Can the cache drive be partitioned to load OS and function as cache drive?" According the this site: https://www.urtech.ca/2018/01/solved-install-ssd-caching-using-intel-rapid-storage-technology-rst/
a SSD caching prerequisite is that the OS MUST be installed on the spinning disk and the SSD should be EMPTY, not even formatted or partitioned. The video on the site showed only a maximum of 64GB on the SSD can be used for caching, the rest can be partitioned and used for data storage. So SSD caching may be worthwhile if you have a very small SSD, but with a SSD large enough to support the OS and more there appears to be no advantage.
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 26th, 2019 18:00
I like the idea of the SSD just for boot and make the 2 - HDD's for storage. I would however like the 2 HDD as a RAID 1 array even if a 3rd party Raid controller is required as the backup solution can be problematic. I am building this system for my brother in law and he has a tendency to play around and break stuff. He is using this rig solely for Music and pictures. Did I mention I live 1800 miles away from him so eyes on PC if issues arrive will be by teamviewer only. A Raid 1 array would ease his mind (as well as mine), I could figure out how to make sure Windows writes for all documents, music and videos would automatically go to Raid array drives. This way should he mess something up with Windows all I would need to do is get a reimaged windows 10 boot image restored to a new SSD and send it to him and he wouldn't have to restore the 2 TB plus of music and pictures he already has.
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 26th, 2019 19:00
Vic384
I agree the caching drive doesn't make as much sense now. The only benefit is if I used it and built a Raid 1 array and allowed Windows OS to install on the Array as well as content. I would then have to get a 3rd 4 TB drive and tell him to replace one of the Raid drives every 30 days or so and put the one he just pulled in a safe location until next month. I am using 4TB Seagate drives that are 7200 RPM with 256MB cache so Raid array performance should be acceptable with a 64 GB cache for the Raid array..
Vic384
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3.2K Posts
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September 27th, 2019 04:00
@I didnt do it I am not very familiar with RAID 1 but I did some reading and I understand that one disadvantage is that since RAID 1 mirrors the drives it also mirrors the errors. For example, if you accidentally delete a file it will be delete on the mirrored drive also. So unless you have a separate backup strategy I think an automatic scheduled backups as @RoHe suggested is better. With automatic backups you may wish to also do incremental backups so that work in progress does not get lost.
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 27th, 2019 09:00
Vic384
That is the main weakness of having the OS on the same drive as the Raid 1 Array. Ideally I would have OS on a different drive (SSD) and the Storage drive would be my Raid 1 array. The biggest advantage of Raid 1 would be instant backups. Rebuilding an OS drive would be relatively minor compared to restoring all the music and pictures. However 4 TB drives are 100 bucks and as long as he faithfully pulled and replaced one drive in the array each month or so he would always have a true restore that would never be less than a month old. If he did it on a more frequent schedule that would be even better. Should the system get corrupted all he would do is pull both drives and boot with the backup drive. Once the system is up he would put in one of the corrupted drives and it would mirror to the operating drive that he had just inserted. It would be nice to have a drive tray that had hot swap hard drives but not possible unless I could afford to get him all SSD storage as there is only one 5.25 bay on the system and that would require giving up DVD drive. There are 4 slot hot swap SSD cages with trays that only take 1 5.25 slot but it takes at least 2 5.25 slots for cages for systems with 3.5 drives.
Vic384
4 Operator
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3.2K Posts
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September 27th, 2019 11:00
@I didnt do it There are lots of articles which says that RAID is not a backup substitute. Here is one such article: https://www.backupassist.com/blog/support/raid-or-backup-is-raid-a-good-backup-substitute/
Your plan to have another hard drive which serves as a backup and is updated once a month or more does mitigate the problem but you could still lose a month of work or whatever work that was done since the last backup. The big pro for RAID is the ability to protect your data in real time. You just have to weigh the pros and cons and determine which solution is best for your situation.
RoHe
10 Elder
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45.2K Posts
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September 27th, 2019 11:00
Why not just use external USB hard drives or NAS for backup storage?
Swapping one HDD out of a RAID1 every ~30 days is ridiculous. Every time you swap the drive you're going to have to rebuild the RAID1. That's likely to take more time than just using automated software to back up on a schedule, either to an internal HDD, USB HDDs or to a NAS.
If you use 2 (or more) USB drives you can alternate your backups. On day 1, use USB drive #1, day 2 use USB #2 etc. That way you'll always have the latest backup and the next previous backup available.
And are you sure you can set up RAID1 for 2 HDDs in this PC, if an SSD is the boot drive?
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 28th, 2019 09:00
Ron & Vic
I think you have both talked me into doing some type of scheduled backups to an external USB / NAS drive, I just received the Dell XPS 8910 this morning and the process to just pull a hard drive tray while elegant to me is probably a little more than he will want to do. This would be a case where the old plastic HD carrier would be appreciated. I have decided to try and assemble and run with the SSD Cache (Intel RST) and purchased a Corsair NVMe 120 GB M.2 X4 SSD drive for the 64 GB cache maximum limit for RST. Everthing I read says I should be able to use the X4 slot for the RST cache drive. I will try to configure RAID 1 for the HDD's. I don't have the drives yet but they should be here Tuesday. From what I understand you need to load OS on HDD (Raid 1 hopefully) and only then can you load the RST software and use the M.2 SSD as a cache drive. Thank you both for bouncing ideas that made me think. I am sure I will have challenges but the board has been extremely helpful.
I didnt do it
13 Posts
0
September 28th, 2019 10:00
Vic
There is one SATA cable and it is a 90 degree cable, I have a Micro Center near me so I will pick up a few more before the HD's get here. I am a PBX tech and RAID 1 array has been critical in providing redundancy and keeping the PBX up if one drive in the array fails. That is my reason for going with the RAID 1 HDD array. The Intel RST cache should greatly improve write speeds to the conventional HDD's and because it is a NVMe M.2 SSD it should have throughput of 2000 MB /S in the X4 slot. Much faster than the conventional HDD's array will be able to write but will improve normal Windows experience greatly. I also ordered a 32 GB (4X8) Corsair Vengeance memory kit because when I received the barebones it only had one 16 GB DDR4 Dimm. Never could understand why people don't install DImm's in matched pairs Altogether I should have a screaming PC for less than 700 bucks with some redundancy built in.
Vic384
4 Operator
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3.2K Posts
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September 28th, 2019 10:00
I hope your RAID 1 setup works out for you. When you install your new hard drives you will need SATA data cables. I recommend that you purchase ones with a right-angled connector because a straight connector to the hard drive may interfere with closing the side panel. Look at the SATA data cable that comes with your Dell.
RoHe
10 Elder
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45.2K Posts
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September 28th, 2019 12:00
So you've given up on installing the 512-GB SSD as the boot drive, and only intend to install 2 HDDs in RAID1 and an SSD as a cache, correct?
Do you know if you can have an SSD cache if there are 2 HDDs in RAID1? I don't know...
Are you sure that Corsair RAM is compatible? Dell PCs can be very fussy about RAM...
I presume you'll be installing Win 10, so make sure you have RST 15.9.8.1050 or later. Previous versions of RST aren't compatible with Win 10, v1903.
Post back and let us know how it goes...