XPS 8940, Startech Firewire PCIe not working with Firewire audio interfaces

Question

Reporting here an issue I have been battling for almost a month. Around mid October I purchased a brand new Dell XPS 8940 (10th gen i9-10900K processor, 64GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070) and Windows 10 Pro 2004 build 19041.572. I installed a Firewire PCIe card Startech PEX1394A2V2 in the small PCIe slot to be able to connect Firewire Audio interfaces that have been running without any issues in an old Windows 7 PC (which the XPS is replacing)

The Startech card was recognized by Windows and it shows in Device Manager as having no problems or conflicts (It has assigned IRQ 18 not shared by any other device). The card has been tested with the Windows 10 Texas Instruments OHCI compliant driver and with the "Legacy" driver -so the issue I will describe below is not specific to one of the Windows drivers. It happens with both.

I tested the PCIe card for DV video tape import with an old Sony Hi8 DV camera. Used an old program called "Scenalyzer". The camera was detected by Windows using the generic DV device driver and I was able to import video with no problems.

I then started testing for firewire Audio interface connection. I have used two different units. An Echo Audiofire4 (firewire only device) and a MOTU Audio Express Hybrid (has firewire and USB connections) The drivers and software for both units were installed without issues and they show in Device Manager as "working properly".

I have not been able to make these units work at all. The units were tested separately and the description of the issue below is exactly the same for both:

The unit shows in audio devices and windows allows to select as an output. However, audio playback does not work and there is no audio signal whatsoever. System sounds do not work. Audio test in device properties produces no sound. If I launch an mp3 player I can select a song but when I press "play" song does not start, the play button shows as "pressed" but nothing happens. If I open the audio interface console I can see that value initially set such as sampling frequency have randomly changed. If I correct them and close the console, the problem is still happening. If I open the console, the values are scrambled again (in the case of the MOTU if I do this several times, I end up causing a blue screen and computer restart!)

The MOTU unit can be connected via USB. If I connect via USB, the unit works just fine.

ALL the standard advice for troubleshooting audio issues has been tried (changing cables, reinstalling PCIe, disabling other audio drivers i.e. Realtek and NVIDIA, etc, etc)

I am suspecting that there has to be a fundamental incompatibility between this Startech PCIe design and the combination Dell motherboard/W10 2004 release. I have not tried to do a reset to factory of the Dell and start all over again. It is a huge undertaking having to reload all my applications without any guarantee of changing the outcome. I have not tried a different PCIe because I really don't know which other to get. This Startech model is advertised as being genuine "TI chipset" based and most compatible, and here I am.

My question to the forum is - has anyone been able to have a Firewire PCIe successfully interface with a Firewire AUDIO interface on a new XPS8940 or similar in W10 2004? If yes, what PCIe brand and model was used? What was the XPS computer configuration?

Thanks folks for whatever help you may provide

PS: for the record, in the MOTU forums I have found another person reporting in October exactly the same problem with this PCIe and a new W10 computer but I don't have details of the computer model.

DELL-Cares · Answer

Thank you! We have received the required details. We will work towards a resolution. In the meantime, you may also receive assistance or suggestions from the community members.

RoHe · Answer

Maybe you should be contacting Startech tech support...

speedstep · Answer

Firewire IEEE 1394 OHCI drivers are no longer supported. The version from 2006 is usually required to get anything working. MUST BE Microsoft WHQL driver

Lots of Bla Bla Bla clicky clicky to follow.

THIS IS NOT A RONCO ONE CLICK ONE AND DONE.

Movie maker and Windows Live Essentials is no longer available for download.

Windows Essentials latest version 16.4.3528.0331:

English (United Kingdom)

http://web.archive.org/web/20160423192125/http://wl.dlservice.microsoft.com/download/1/9/4/194B1919-A211-441F-BC0E-34F6B533B876/en-gb/wlsetup-all.exe

English (United States)

http://web.archive.org/web/20170112124505/http://wl.dlservice.microsoft.com/download/C/1/B/C1BA42D6-6A50-4A4A-90E5-FA9347E9360C/en/wlsetup-all.exe

Legacy DirectX 9 and 10 must be reinstalled from control panel then Directx June 2010 downloaded and installed.

Enable DirectPlay on Windows 10 Legacy Components

CONTROL PANEL. TURN FEATURES ON OR OFF

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8109

You download the file and make a folder for it.

Then Extract the exe into the folder

Then Run DXSETUP.EXE as administrator.

Legacy Fire-wire driver was available with Windows 7 and 8.0 but that driver will not install for windows 8.1 or 10.

PCI-E chipsets are 3.0 in the 8940 and your card is PCI-2.0

This means that beyond drivers not working the LINE CODE PHY is 8b/10b not

128b/130b

This is a known compatability issue from as early as 2009

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/guide/pci-express3-phy-implementation-considerations-idf2009-presentation.pdf

The IEEE 1394 OHCI driver issue started with windows 8.1

Neither Apple or Microsoft support fire-wire anymore.

I no longer use firewire so this may or may not help YMMV download at your own risk

https://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/Firewire-1.htm

I dont think Roll back driver works anymore

opticspect · Answer

Yep - I have done that too - waiting on their response - plus have a thread open at the MOTU forums (where another user is experiencing the same issue but was not specific on the new hardware used) and another thread at Gearslutz, where people were posting success/failure of using firewire audio devices with Windows 10 - so hitting all options here.

My main goal for posting here is to get feedback of successful user experiences with whatever recent configuration of Dell machine+firewire card+audio interface that worked for them, not necessarily tied up to the Startech PCIe card which from the hardware chain is the most easily disposable unit - since the PC is $1000's and the audio interface is $100's in already sunken cost...

RoHe · Answer

@opticspect I'd be a bit skeptical about Startech PCIe cards...

FWIW, there's a recent thread about a new PC with a Samsung NVME SSD connected to a Startech PCIe>NVME card that doesn't work. The card is recognized in BIOS, even without the SSD mounted, but the Samsung SSD is not visible in Windows when attached to the Startech card.

Of course, Startech and Samsung blamed each other.

opticspect · Answer

Thanks for all the feedback.

I actually have already installed Windows Live with Movie Maker and so on since I liked very much their photo application that I had in my old W7 computer. Anyway, the problem is not with video. I was able to import DV video from my old Sony camera using this Startech Firewire PCIe with no problems. The problem is with the audio interface devices.

It is true that the Startech card is PCIe 1.1 and the Dell 8940 is PCIe 3.0, however from what I have read PCIe 3.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible with PCIe 1.0 cards. In the document referenced in the link it actually states:
• Replace 8b/10b encoding with a scrambling-only encoding scheme when operating at PCIe 3.0 data rate

Meaning that 3.0 specification is supposed to maintain 8b/10b when operating below the 3.0 data rate, which is what will happen if the card inserted is PCIe 1.1 (or at least that is the theory)

As for the OHCI compliant drivers, yeah I have tried both -the one installed automatically for the card by the current Windows 10 and the "legacy" version detailed in the Studio1 link. The problem is the same with both.

Still waiting to hear from Startech...not surprised. Probably will try to engage them on chat over the weekend.

speedstep · Answer

'PCIe 3.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible with PCIe 1.0 cards.:' No that's absolutely wrong. This is also why newer video cards DO NOT WORK in older models like the precision 690 with PCI-E bus 1.1  3.0 is backwards compatible to PCI-E version 2.1 but not 2.0 or 1.1 You need a system with PCI-E 2.0 slot or the line code is wrong for the card. AND the data rate is wrong.  It WILL NOT downclock to 1.1 data rate.  Everything on every bus runs at the same speed unless the chipset supports 2 different bus speeds based on specific slots like some precision Models. Some Dell precision models have PCI-E 2.0 slots to accommodate this. The 8b/10b   vs  128b/130b line code incompatibility goes back to 2009. PCIe 6.0 interface switches to PAM4 encoding from the NRZ 128b/130b encoding scheme used for PCIe 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0. So again there is a gap in backwards compatability. https://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/guide/pci-express3-phy-implementation-considerations-idf2009-presentation.pdf

opticspect · Answer

Update..

I was doing yesterday some additional testing with the MOTU unit. Ended up causing several blue screens as the Audio Console and CueMixFX became irresponsive -just like the other user in the MOTU forum mentioned. I did not get crashes with the Audiofire but with the MOTU is pretty much a repeatable event. I downloaded a crash analyzer from the folks that make latencymon and all the crashes point at issues with the MOTU firewire driver (motufwa64.sys) causing MULTIPLE_IRP_COMPLETE_REQUESTS and BAD_POOL_CALLER errors.

I have come to the conclusion that in this combination of machine (Dell XPS8940) and Windows 10 something has created a fundamental incompatibility in the Firewire subsystem for audio applications.

When I just got the computer, I did a quick check before reinstalling all applications to see if I would see audio signal with the Audiofire interface and it did work. Then I installed many applications, Windows installed many updates and Dell did the same think. Obviously, something along the way just broke the Firewire.

At this point, the only step I could take is to re-image the computer to factory status and start all over again but I have decided not to. The fact is, firewire has been abandoned by MS and by the HW manufacturers and even if I make it work now it is going to eventually break down again as Dell and MS push updates.

So, time to ditch firewire and move to a USB based solution. So far the plan is to use a MOTU 828Mk3 USB for the rack and a Focusrite 8i6 3rd gen that will be permanently connected to the computer as the main audio. In the DAW I will try to use both with Asio4all (which has worked allright for me in the past) or will try ODeus Audio if I see bad latency/sync. Let's see how this goes...

This I think seals it,

"PCIe 3.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible with PCIe 1.0 cards.:"

No that's absolutely wrong. This is also why newer video cards DO NOT WORK in older models like the precision 690 with PCI-E bus 1.1 3.0 is backwards compatible to PCI-E version 2.1 but not 2.0 or 1.1

You need a system with PCI-E 2.0 slot or the line code is wrong for the card. AND the data rate is wrong. It WILL NOT downclock to 1.1 data rate. Everything on every bus runs at the same speed unless the chipset supports 2 different bus speeds based on specific slots like some precision Models."

......because ALL the Firewire PCIe cards that I have looked up in Amazon or other online shops, by Startech or anybody else are clearly labled as PCIe 1.0 or 1.1 -there is no Firewire PCIe card stating to be compliant with 2.0 or above"

I will keep the Startech installed because funny enough IT IS working for DV import so I can still use to capture old tapes

Thanks for all the help folks!

XPS Desktops

XPS 8940, Startech Firewire PCIe not working with Firewire audio interfaces

Enable DirectPlay on Windows 10 Legacy Components

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