I hear you loud and clear. Dell is not getting another dime from me until they quit selling junk that doesn't work with Linux, and insists on open source Linux drivers for everything they sell. I favor Gentoo as well, and any Dell box that has equipment that does not work with a Gentoo install is a box that in my view does not run Linux. Ubuntu may well be a wonderful thing, but I am not interested in it, and I am certainly not interested in proprietary drivers of any kind. If I can't have the source for the drivers, I can't use the hardware. I don't really care that Dell doesn't give "support" regarding codecs and such. Frankly, if Dell offered a rebate in exchange for abandoning the "training wheels" level of support, I would select that option. When I have had a defective part, it has been nothing but trouble to explain to the phone support geek that I have diagnosed the problem and I want it fixed, not to dance through his script. I do them a favor by offering to let them send me a part, and when I hear the roadblocks I flat out tell them to either shut up and approve sending me the part, of go ahead and make it an in house repair covered under warranty. So Dell support is something I will always view as a weak link. If the parts they sell are functioning for the warranty term, and if they have open source drivers available, then I am happy. Another cold hard fact is that Linux multimedia will not be something that the Digital Rights Managment lobby will be able to control. If Dell is going to jump into the Linux camp, and do what its customers want, they will also have to tell the content managment crowd to take a jump. Dell's customers want devices that are not limited by Hollywood lawyers. One more thing. If Dell wants to be on board with Linux, then they should forget those silly "Trusted Computing" chips. The customer will own the box, so they shouold quit trying to rent it to us.
I actually like Ubuntu though. It's a nice, easy distro with a good friendly community (usually).
I had specced out an Inspiron E1505 a few weeks ago and nVidia was an option for video card. When I went through again a few days ago, only ATI was available. It confused and angered me, kind of :p
I lucked out on the model that I was looking into, but I can sympathize with the people who were looking for something different. I also lucked into the distro choice, as I am fond of and familiar with Ubuntu/Debian.
If they do decide to stick with ATI chipsets, I hope that they will be able to squeeze some sort of workable driver out of ATI. I understand the viewpoint of all open source, no proprietary, but I don't think that the consumer target will care one way or another. The Dell/Broadcom issues were why I went with the Intel Pro wireless choice, because I know I can at least get it to work.
I know that you can get multimedia support for Linux. I also know that it is of less than reputable means ;)
It is dead easy to get this support in Ubuntu, I'm not sure about straight Gentoo, as the only flavor of that I've tried was Sabayon.
Really I can only hope that Dell will have a positive impact on user base and hardware support for Linux. Heck, if we're lucky, maybe it will even snag the attention of major software retailers.
Cautiously Optimistic.
P.S. It's a good idea to have some sort of virus scanner on your Linux box if it's connected to a windows network.
P.P.S. I agree with much of the second post as well :)
Message Edited by kevinf311 on 05-23-2007 01:29 AM
The corporate purchases might well favor Linux over Win.
The server market has to offer Linux to be competitive.
And if I.T. geeks are making the purchasing decisions, they would much rather have their corporate sheeple equipped with Linux laptops that are easier to manage and maintain. Unfortunately, even some corporate I.T. departments are forbidden to put Linux on laptops, and they end up running ssh over Win to connect to a real system in order to do real work. Plus there is the overhead of keeping a Win laptop malware free.
For those who just want an inexpensive machine for light Internet surfing, email, and the like, then a relatively cheap machine running an essentially free operating system would serve them well.
If Dell doesn't offer such a product, there are others that do offer it. Dell wants to compete at all levels, and that is a good thing.
But to be in the Linux market means being a supporter of it. And the biggest boost they can give is to only purchase Linux verified hardware.
If ATI suddenly finds that they can't get a Dell contract without publishing an open source driver that doesn't dumb down their product, then they will quickly change their ways. It is just a question of will Dell flex their muscle in the market, and do a good thing, or will they be led by hardware manufacturers just like they have been led by Microsoft?
I really think that the only people that are going to buy the new Linux consumer line products will be people who are new to Linux. Pointing out such flaws on /. and other geeky-type websites will make the hardcore Open Source users flee away. Microsoft HAS to be pulling some other types of problems for Dell to be doing this. Think about it. Microsoft has basically ran the corporate computer companies. Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, and also IBM seeing that IBM is a HUGE supporter of Linux and open source; yet, you can't get ANY consumer products pre-installed with Linux.
I actually sat here one night going through calling these companies asking if I could have Debian pre-installed on a consumer lined product. The most common answer was "What is Debian? and Who is a Linux?" This mostly came from Gateway and HP/Compaq. Maybe the major computer companies aren't ready for Open Source. I wouldn't doubt it. I know some people that are have dead hard-ons for Microsoft and that in my mind I think is holding back the open source community.
Also, I don't run a Windows based network. Everything in my house is ALL open source and ALL Linux. All 4 of my computers INCLUDING my PBX box AND router are ran on Linux. Mostly Gentoo, and openWRT on the router.
i have gone on and on about how dell might have just ruined Linux's chance to grow.
the "consumers" said they wanted choice in choosing an operating system when they purchase a computer. what is dell's answer? windows or ubuntu, there is your choice. if you want ubuntu, you have 1 laptop and 2 desktops to choose from. where is the choice?
like GentooNiXGeek, i detest ubuntu and all debian based distros, at least until they get their act together. ubuntu does have the best community i have seen, however, i hate their security practice. i use fedora and slackware on all of my computers. if i were to purchase a computer from dell, it doesnt matter what OS comes on it, it would be wiped clean and *I* will choose what goes on it.
i have said many times how dell can really make this work. open source their drivers. just GPL their code base and then EVERY distro will work with their hardware. this really isnt a hard concept and will cost dell nothing. a few weeks later, there will be working drivers for all of their hardware for every distribution. it really is a win/win situation.
and with all that, nvidia FTW. if dell is going to start supporting linux in the home market, they also need to start supporting hardware vendors who do the same.
there are already 3 major topics on dellideastorm that i would recommend everyone to show support for.
I'd like to comment on some of the stuff you mentioned in your post. They seem to pretty nicely sum up the doubts that are still not officially answered yet.
I've summed up your five main points like this:
1. only one option
2. ati
3. codecs
4. ugly hacks needed for input
5. installing crapware.
And here's my comments:
1. More options would ofcourse be appreciated. I hope this will happen in time. My personal preference though, is that Dell actually commits to this and _really_ supports the hardware for Linux use. This means I prefer less choice and actually getting one model that works flawlessly.
If I wanted choice I could by any computer (or parts) that I wished, and install any GNU/Linux distrubiotion I'd like. The nice thing about having Dell distributing "linux machines" is that this fills the gap "I'm lazy, I don't care... I just want something that works".
More on this in the following point...
2. For me the issue with ATI graphics is closely coupled with the previous issue. ATI hardware doesn't "just work" in any distribution. You need (cr*ppy) proprietary drivers for even the most basic stuff like accelerated 2d graphics.
I appreciate the freedom of free software, so personally I'd have no problem to sacrifice 3d acceleration and similar stuff to avoid proprietary drivers. This unfortunately isn't even an option with the X1xxx series of ATI Radeon cards.
THIS ISSUE IS A SHOWSTOPPER FOR ME! I won't buy a computer where I can't even get 2D acceleration going with free software out of the box. Nvidia would be OK I guess, certainly alot better then ATI, but why, oh, why didn't Dell make sure there whete Intel graphics in the supported models? I really can't understand this big blunder!
3. You mentions that there are lots of solutions for codecs on Linux. This isn't really true. Most of them boil down to using binary (.dll) codecs stolen from Windows. This is obviouly not legal to redistribute so Dell would most likely end up in a legal battle if they did. There are other solutions though! And the nice thing about it it that Dell doesn't need to do anything to get the issue solved! =)
You can buy legally licensed codecs from Fluendo (see https://shop.fluendo.com/). They have licensed the technology and written codecs for several different proprietary formats. Some, where the patent licensing allowed it, like mp3 are even available as free software!
Before you go on about how this is too hard for the avarage user, please see the "Codec Buddy" (see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy) initiative to automatically guide you through the shop when applications like Totem detects that you are missing the required codec to play the file you tried to open!
So... The issue here isn't only to get a technical solution to the proprietary codec issue, but to find a solution that makes it _legally_ possible to distribute codecs... As far as I know, the *only* option so far for a *legal* solution is the one from Fluendo.
(Personally I can live without codecs, I'd rather avoid proprietary formats then use proprietary software to play them...)
4. Talking about all input keys often called "multimedia buttons", this is usually a problem because there's no real standard for doing this. All hradware vendors doesn this their own way and there's no good way to autodetect and automagically "do the right thing". You need "Dell branded" input drivers installed on Dell hardware to get everything working. Judging from the video in the Direct2Dell blog entry here, http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/05/24/15994.aspx, this is one issue that Dell is working on - and I believe that they'll get it solved quickly. AFAIK it's not really a hard problem, just one that can't be solved "once and for all" on a large scale. Dell hardware needs special Dell attention to get the buttons working.
(Again, personally I can live without this. Does anyone really use those multimedia buttons anyway? When I buy keyboards and similar I always look for the ones with as few extra buttons as possibly. I never use them and mainly find them annoying..)
5. About Dell adding lots of extra software. I personally don't think they'll waste their time on this. As you mentioned there's no need for antivirus software and whatnot... In the long run when/if preinstalled GNU/Linux distributions gets more popular this might be an issue. I think this is a long way ahead, so we probably don't need to bother yet.... and as you said, you'll reinstall it anyway - so you'll get rid of all that as an added bonus. Just getting a preconfigured hardware configuration that "just works" is what I think will be the main selling point for people buying Ubuntu laptops from Dell. Many of them will probably be reinstalled with another distribution right away.
So... to sum it up...
Summary:
ATI graphics hardware for a GNU/Linux computer. What a blunder!
Codecs are a legal problem rather then a technical one. Fluendo solves this for us!
i do agree that no one should have to pay for codecs, however, that is not how this industry works. microsoft designed the wma and wmv codecs, so that means they own the rights to its distribution. microsoft does not want anyone and everyone playing their formats unless it is on their operating system. if another operating system wishes to play their format, that company needs to get the licenses to offer them.
the same goes for mp3. if you remember, microsoft just lost a 1.4 billion dollar (if i remember correctly) court case by the owner of the mp3 codec. lucky for us, fluendo purchased a license to offer a free (as in beer) gstreamer plug-in that will allow mp3 playback. (yet another reason why i push for the use of ogg-vorbis formats.)
personally, i would love to see software patents being completely removed since everything on a computer, in its purest form, is just a mathematical equation.
As a new organization leading the way for open source desktop computing, Dell move should be lauded at this point of time. Yes, there are flaws, but don't we all do the them the first time we met them? I notice several initial moves that signals a very good future for OSS. Firstly, I'm a Ubuntu guy. I detect there's a better driver detection for my 1-year plus old Dell 630M including all the multimedia buttons on Ubuntu Feisty Fawn. The experience is also getting better and I detect better performance compared to Edgy and Dapper which I installed before on this notebook. The point is, the guys at Dell are working hard round the clock to ensure better drivers and better experience of Open Source on Dell hardware. Come on, the Ubuntu's barely started to roll-out from their factory since the ideastorm thingie. Give them more time. They will deliver results to us the FLOSS and Linux community.
No one should have to pay for something that is free (codecs).
The free codecs (Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora, and similar) are included. The problem is the non-free (patented) formats which are the majority. These non-free and patent encumbered formats include MPEG (used in DVD, mp3, SVCD, DVB, and more), Windows Media (WMV, WMA), and many other common formats. You need to license these technologies to be able to legally distribute implementations in the parts of the world where these patents apply.
It all boils down to: Software patents are evil!
As mentioned, it's a legal problem rather then a technical one.
too bad they dont offer PCLinuxOS which works for tons of hardware and includes most codecs upon install and accelerated graphics ati/nvidia is just a couple clicks away in synaptic.no command line for anything great for newbs to linux.
works great as a gaming distro quake3 (i know old as heck) but it runs great.
includes devede to convert avi to dvd and watch on tv very cool.
frostwire included for music an video needs.
i use many dif distro's but this is about as easy as it gets.
much easier than vista for sure.
DarthMarley
9 Posts
0
May 23rd, 2007 04:00
kevinf311
48 Posts
0
May 23rd, 2007 04:00
I actually like Ubuntu though. It's a nice, easy distro with a good friendly community (usually).
I had specced out an Inspiron E1505 a few weeks ago and nVidia was an option for video card. When I went through again a few days ago, only ATI was available. It confused and angered me, kind of :p
I lucked out on the model that I was looking into, but I can sympathize with the people who were looking for something different. I also lucked into the distro choice, as I am fond of and familiar with Ubuntu/Debian.
If they do decide to stick with ATI chipsets, I hope that they will be able to squeeze some sort of workable driver out of ATI. I understand the viewpoint of all open source, no proprietary, but I don't think that the consumer target will care one way or another. The Dell/Broadcom issues were why I went with the Intel Pro wireless choice, because I know I can at least get it to work.
I know that you can get multimedia support for Linux. I also know that it is of less than reputable means ;)
It is dead easy to get this support in Ubuntu, I'm not sure about straight Gentoo, as the only flavor of that I've tried was Sabayon.
Really I can only hope that Dell will have a positive impact on user base and hardware support for Linux. Heck, if we're lucky, maybe it will even snag the attention of major software retailers.
Cautiously Optimistic.
P.S. It's a good idea to have some sort of virus scanner on your Linux box if it's connected to a windows network.
P.P.S. I agree with much of the second post as well :)
Message Edited by kevinf311 on 05-23-2007 01:29 AM
DarthMarley
9 Posts
0
May 23rd, 2007 06:00
The server market has to offer Linux to be competitive.
And if I.T. geeks are making the purchasing decisions, they would much rather have their corporate sheeple equipped with Linux laptops that are easier to manage and maintain. Unfortunately, even some corporate I.T. departments are forbidden to put Linux on laptops, and they end up running ssh over Win to connect to a real system in order to do real work. Plus there is the overhead of keeping a Win laptop malware free.
For those who just want an inexpensive machine for light Internet surfing, email, and the like, then a relatively cheap machine running an essentially free operating system would serve them well.
If Dell doesn't offer such a product, there are others that do offer it. Dell wants to compete at all levels, and that is a good thing.
But to be in the Linux market means being a supporter of it. And the biggest boost they can give is to only purchase Linux verified hardware.
If ATI suddenly finds that they can't get a Dell contract without publishing an open source driver that doesn't dumb down their product, then they will quickly change their ways. It is just a question of will Dell flex their muscle in the market, and do a good thing, or will they be led by hardware manufacturers just like they have been led by Microsoft?
GentooNiXGeek
3 Posts
0
May 23rd, 2007 06:00
I actually sat here one night going through calling these companies asking if I could have Debian pre-installed on a consumer lined product. The most common answer was "What is Debian? and Who is a Linux?" This mostly came from Gateway and HP/Compaq. Maybe the major computer companies aren't ready for Open Source. I wouldn't doubt it. I know some people that are have dead hard-ons for Microsoft and that in my mind I think is holding back the open source community.
Also, I don't run a Windows based network. Everything in my house is ALL open source and ALL Linux. All 4 of my computers INCLUDING my PBX box AND router are ran on Linux. Mostly Gentoo, and openWRT on the router.
sakuramboo
79 Posts
0
May 23rd, 2007 12:00
the "consumers" said they wanted choice in choosing an operating system when they purchase a computer. what is dell's answer? windows or ubuntu, there is your choice. if you want ubuntu, you have 1 laptop and 2 desktops to choose from. where is the choice?
like GentooNiXGeek, i detest ubuntu and all debian based distros, at least until they get their act together. ubuntu does have the best community i have seen, however, i hate their security practice. i use fedora and slackware on all of my computers. if i were to purchase a computer from dell, it doesnt matter what OS comes on it, it would be wiped clean and *I* will choose what goes on it.
i have said many times how dell can really make this work. open source their drivers. just GPL their code base and then EVERY distro will work with their hardware. this really isnt a hard concept and will cost dell nothing. a few weeks later, there will be working drivers for all of their hardware for every distribution. it really is a win/win situation.
and with all that, nvidia FTW. if dell is going to start supporting linux in the home market, they also need to start supporting hardware vendors who do the same.
there are already 3 major topics on dellideastorm that i would recommend everyone to show support for.
http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62079
http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62959
http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62908
bugmenot4
17 Posts
0
May 24th, 2007 10:00
I'd like to comment on some of the stuff you mentioned in your post. They seem to pretty nicely sum up the doubts that are still not officially answered yet.
I've summed up your five main points like this:
1. only one option
2. ati
3. codecs
4. ugly hacks needed for input
5. installing crapware.
And here's my comments:
1. More options would ofcourse be appreciated. I hope this will happen in time. My personal preference though, is that Dell actually commits to this and _really_ supports the hardware for Linux use. This means I prefer less choice and actually getting one model that works flawlessly.
If I wanted choice I could by any computer (or parts) that I wished, and install any GNU/Linux distrubiotion I'd like. The nice thing about having Dell distributing "linux machines" is that this fills the gap "I'm lazy, I don't care... I just want something that works".
More on this in the following point...
2. For me the issue with ATI graphics is closely coupled with the previous issue. ATI hardware doesn't "just work" in any distribution. You need (cr*ppy) proprietary drivers for even the most basic stuff like accelerated 2d graphics.
I appreciate the freedom of free software, so personally I'd have no problem to sacrifice 3d acceleration and similar stuff to avoid proprietary drivers. This unfortunately isn't even an option with the X1xxx series of ATI Radeon cards.
THIS ISSUE IS A SHOWSTOPPER FOR ME! I won't buy a computer where I can't even get 2D acceleration going with free software out of the box. Nvidia would be OK I guess, certainly alot better then ATI, but why, oh, why didn't Dell make sure there whete Intel graphics in the supported models? I really can't understand this big blunder!
3. You mentions that there are lots of solutions for codecs on Linux. This isn't really true. Most of them boil down to using binary (.dll) codecs stolen from Windows. This is obviouly not legal to redistribute so Dell would most likely end up in a legal battle if they did. There are other solutions though! And the nice thing about it it that Dell doesn't need to do anything to get the issue solved! =)
You can buy legally licensed codecs from Fluendo (see https://shop.fluendo.com/). They have licensed the technology and written codecs for several different proprietary formats. Some, where the patent licensing allowed it, like mp3 are even available as free software!
Before you go on about how this is too hard for the avarage user, please see the "Codec Buddy" (see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy) initiative to automatically guide you through the shop when applications like Totem detects that you are missing the required codec to play the file you tried to open!
So... The issue here isn't only to get a technical solution to the proprietary codec issue, but to find a solution that makes it _legally_ possible to distribute codecs... As far as I know, the *only* option so far for a *legal* solution is the one from Fluendo.
(Personally I can live without codecs, I'd rather avoid proprietary formats then use proprietary software to play them...)
4. Talking about all input keys often called "multimedia buttons", this is usually a problem because there's no real standard for doing this. All hradware vendors doesn this their own way and there's no good way to autodetect and automagically "do the right thing". You need "Dell branded" input drivers installed on Dell hardware to get everything working. Judging from the video in the Direct2Dell blog entry here, http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/05/24/15994.aspx, this is one issue that Dell is working on - and I believe that they'll get it solved quickly. AFAIK it's not really a hard problem, just one that can't be solved "once and for all" on a large scale. Dell hardware needs special Dell attention to get the buttons working.
(Again, personally I can live without this. Does anyone really use those multimedia buttons anyway? When I buy keyboards and similar I always look for the ones with as few extra buttons as possibly. I never use them and mainly find them annoying..)
5. About Dell adding lots of extra software. I personally don't think they'll waste their time on this. As you mentioned there's no need for antivirus software and whatnot... In the long run when/if preinstalled GNU/Linux distributions gets more popular this might be an issue. I think this is a long way ahead, so we probably don't need to bother yet.... and as you said, you'll reinstall it anyway - so you'll get rid of all that as an added bonus. Just getting a preconfigured hardware configuration that "just works" is what I think will be the main selling point for people buying Ubuntu laptops from Dell. Many of them will probably be reinstalled with another distribution right away.
So... to sum it up...
Summary:
ATI graphics hardware for a GNU/Linux computer. What a blunder!
Codecs are a legal problem rather then a technical one. Fluendo solves this for us!
//fatal
sakuramboo
79 Posts
0
May 24th, 2007 17:00
the same goes for mp3. if you remember, microsoft just lost a 1.4 billion dollar (if i remember correctly) court case by the owner of the mp3 codec. lucky for us, fluendo purchased a license to offer a free (as in beer) gstreamer plug-in that will allow mp3 playback. (yet another reason why i push for the use of ogg-vorbis formats.)
personally, i would love to see software patents being completely removed since everything on a computer, in its purest form, is just a mathematical equation.
GentooNiXGeek
3 Posts
0
May 24th, 2007 17:00
It's Mrs. GentooNiXGeek.
No one should have to pay for something that is free (codecs).
wariola
1 Message
0
May 25th, 2007 03:00
bugmenot4
17 Posts
0
May 25th, 2007 11:00
The shop is open and it looks like Dell has modified the hardware to not use ATI graphics!
A very good thing!
(Still, I can't udnerstand why companies reuse the same model number when they've hade changes to the product.... this always confuses me!)
//fatal
bugmenot4
17 Posts
0
May 25th, 2007 12:00
I'm sorry, please excuse my mistake..
The free codecs (Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora, and similar) are included. The problem is the non-free (patented) formats which are the majority. These non-free and patent encumbered formats include MPEG (used in DVD, mp3, SVCD, DVB, and more), Windows Media (WMV, WMA), and many other common formats. You need to license these technologies to be able to legally distribute implementations in the parts of the world where these patents apply.
It all boils down to: Software patents are evil!
As mentioned, it's a legal problem rather then a technical one.
//fatal
Smokemare
20 Posts
0
May 25th, 2007 13:00
works great as a gaming distro quake3 (i know old as heck) but it runs great.
includes devede to convert avi to dvd and watch on tv very cool.
frostwire included for music an video needs.
i use many dif distro's but this is about as easy as it gets.
much easier than vista for sure.