Have a similar - but single CPU only - X58 chipset, USB 2, PCIe 2.x, SATA II system.
Added a USB 3.0 card (PCIe 2 x1) when they became reasonably cheap years back, but was considering upgrading to USB 3.1 Gen 2 in a USB 3 / SATA III combo card until I skipped over an upgrade to SATA III and went straight for M.2 NVMe.
I mention the following because you're dealing with video files and a M.2 NVMe SSD could potentially help with processing speed there... My system only has one PCIe 2 x8 slot, all the rest are PCIe 1 x1, which have little bandwidth. Was quite frustrated with constrained upgrade options until a PCIe switch card became available, which allowed me to bifurcate/switch the x8 PCIe lanes to (4) x4 M.2 NVMe ports. This allowed me to jump from SATA II performance of ~280 MB/s to half of M.2 NVMe SSD performance of ~1700 MB/s and, with one of a handful of SSDs with a Legacy Option ROM, boot and run Windows 10 on one of the M.2 NVMe SSDs. The T5500 probably has more PCIe slot options, but on my machine I'll need an adapter to go from M.2 NVMe back to a traditional PCIe x4 slot to add USB 3.1 Gen 2 (or USB 3.2 when it comes out next year). Haven't gotten around to that yet...
If you're starting with USB 2, the easiest, although not universal, option may be to get a 2.5 or 3.5" enclosure with a [e]SATA external interface combined with a 2.5/3.5" drive since you've already got an eSATA port on the T5500. The enclosure will likely run at the same speed as your internal SATA II interface - so, no bottleneck at all. I'd get an enclosure that's separately powered. (Note you can usually go SATA to eSATA as long as the cable is short - ideally 2' or less, but 3' might be ok.) Personally, I run an all-SSD setup, otherwise copying small files takes forever - but, whether this is advantageous depends on how you do your backups. Note I believe there are enclosures with both eSATA and USB external interfaces.
If you go USB 3, I'd consider the following:
USB 3 thumb drives usually get sufficient power, but enclosures often don't. They can be fine until doing heavy writes, then the power is insufficient, and they fail. With SSDs, data and device can be lost. I bricked a number of SSDs this way when testing enclosures. Hard drives might be recoverable, but in any case not good. General solution for this is additional power connector beyond USB or a USB "Y" Connector (device gets power from 2 USB ports). Newer USB-A ports and USB-C may not have this issue, but generally with USB-A ports I don't chance it and always use additional power when connecting an enclosure.
Unless you're upgrading your internal drives beyond SATA II, the original USB 3.0 (aka USB 3.1 Gen 1, aka USB 3.2 Gen 1x1) is likely sufficient. There are lots of inexpensive USB 3.0 add-in PCIe cards. Key thing to look for is UASP support in the driver for your OS. UASP is built-in to Windows 10, but may not be there if you're on Windows 7 or XP. Whether you want/can boot from USB 3 may also be a consideration.
To go beyond the original USB 3.0, you'll need a card with more than one PCIe lane and have to pay attention as to whether you'll really get better performance since slots in T5500 are PCIe 2. As you go up in USB 3.x support, cards become more expensive. Also, with 3.x cards, some attention needs to be paid to power each USB port can supply - should at least be up to new specs and maybe over.
Thanks, Techgee, for your indepth knowledge and suggestions.
Yes, I'm considering the eSata enclosure. There's a hotswap version with 4 bays that would be fine. I'd have to make a RAID of it, though, because for backing up, I like it all to go onto the one volume.
Currently I'm using a Drobo FS, 5 bays x 2TB. It appears as one volume, and very cleverly operates that way, but it's on a network and very slow. The non-network Drobo model, 5C, is USB-C. I suppose I could connect by USB 2, but USB 3 is so tempting to try. And yes, the Drobo would be a hefty enclosure to write to, so the USB 3 has to be working properly.
As far as I know, my T5500 has a 4 pin internal Molex power connector. Is that the white one in the image below? I got this picture off the internet.
I've read, too, that this Ankar USB 3 PCI card should work well...
Whether Windows 7 Professional 64 bit can produce USB 3.0 efficiently out of combining the two is something I have to figure out before I do any damage!
I'd appreciate any further thoughts you have on the above,
I assume you can directly read/write to your existing Drobo FS, NAS setup. I'd start with some analysis with something like CrystalDiskMark or equivalent if you haven't already. That will tell you where your bottleneck is and where you're currently at. What results are you seeing now? With Gigabit Ethernet you should be seeing up to 100 MB/s on large file transfers. With hard drives, small file performance will be horrible, but may not matter for your use case.
What drives are in the T5500? I'd do the same analysis of them as well. What's the results on them? There's no need of backup storage that's faster than your main drives.
For USB, I'd get a card with physical PCIe x4, meaning 4 lanes. It makes no sense to put a single lane x1 card in the T5500 with its x8/x16 slots. Especially since you've got PCIe 2.0, not 3.0.
USB 3.1 Gen 2 (10 Gpbs) cards with 2 USB ports and PCIe x4 (at least physically, might be x2 electrically - but better than x1) are available for $25 or less. Some explicitly support 10 Gpbs on PCIe 2.0, which is what the T5500 has. This is faster than SATA III. There's no way to get this speed with a PCIe 2.0 x1 single lane card.
When you say 'single lane', are you referring to the 'Ankar' card in the link I mentioned in previous post? I see it says 'The PCI-E Port support PCI-E X1/X16 slots'. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SJGGAE
However, I notice it's not connected via the Molex 4 pin cable, like the Ankar card. Can the T5500 run it?
A tech guy said the T5500 doesn't have a 'header' on the motherboard to run USB 3.0, therefore USB 3.0 cards I purchase can't be guaranteed to run on my PC, so I'm not sure what to think after that!
Sorry, a lot of obvious tech ignorance here on my part!
Here are the MB/s (Seq Q32T1 only) results of my CrystalDiskMark 6 tests... C Drive Read 103.2 Write 95.18 D Drive Read 130.9 Write 125.9 F Drive Read 139.1 Write 136.9 Drobo Read 11.46 Write 11.69 Firewire Read 42.44 Write 31.56 USB ext Read 29.91 Write 25.11
I attached a Lacie Drive by eSATA and got Read 1.18GB/s Write 150 MB/s
The Drobo is dead slow and the eSATA is fast!
So, I could install an eSATA external hard drive system. But I like the Drobo 5C's functionality and security.
Can you tell me from the PCIe slot information and photos below which slot to put a 4 lane PCIe2 USB 3 or 3.1 card into and how to attach it?
This is how the Slots are populated inside the T5500... Slot 1 PCIe2 x8 FREE Slot 2 PCIe2 x16 75W Motherboard Slot 3 PCIe2 x8 SDI/HDMI Card Slot 4 PCIe2 x16 75W FREE Slot 5 Firewire Slot 6 M-Audio Card
Additionally, the free, useable cables I can see are (see photos)... Molex 4 pin, with a smaller FDD 4 pin piggybacking the Molex. And a Black 6 pin cable.
When you say 'single lane', are you referring to the 'Ankar' card in the link I mentioned in previous post? I see it says 'The PCI-E Port support PCI-E X1/X16 slots'. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SJGGAE
Exactly - the Ankar card above is a single lane x1 card. Compare the width of the Ankar PCIe gold connector tabs with that of the Lycom, which is a 4 lane (x4) card (physically, anyway). (x8 and x16 cards would be wider still, of course. In general, the more lanes, the higher the bandwidth capacity. Graphic cards are x16 for a reason.)
That's exactly the kind of card you want. It's also capable of a good amount of power (2A) to each port.
However, I notice it's not connected via the Molex 4 pin cable, like the Ankar card. Can the T5500 run it?
The extra power connecter on the Lycom card is a SATA power connecter. They're the black connecters in the first photo you posted. So, you've got what you need there, as long as one of them will reach.
A tech guy said the T5500 doesn't have a 'header' on the motherboard to run USB 3.0, therefore USB 3.0 cards I purchase can't be guaranteed to run on my PC, so I'm not sure what to think after that!
I have no idea what this 'tech guy' is talking about (and I don't think he does either).
Hopefully the final point... those black SATA connectors are from a photo I got on the internet. The only free black connector I can find in my T5500 is the 6 pin one (the last photo in my last post).
I'll look around again inside the PC some more. If I can't find a free SATA connector, perhaps I can get a Molex to SATA adapter cable that will do the same job?
Alternatively, can my free Slot 4 PCIe2 x16 75W power the card without needing a connected SATA cable? ie does power come to it straight from the 'bus'?
Additional thought: I read that some cards go faster/need UASP. Do you know where Windows 7 Pro 64 bit stands re. UASP?
Here are the MB/s (Seq Q32T1 only) results of my CrystalDiskMark 6 tests... C Drive Read 103.2 Write 95.18 D Drive Read 130.9 Write 125.9 F Drive Read 139.1 Write 136.9 Drobo Read 11.46 Write 11.69 Firewire Read 42.44 Write 31.56 USB ext Read 29.91 Write 25.11
[...] The Drobo is dead slow [...]
Internally, the Drobo FS running RAID 5 is likely easily doing over 200 MB/s, and probably over 400 MB/s with good hard drives. Reasons it might not be are fragmentation (I doubt it's that bad) or a failing drive (reads/write succeed, but have to be repeated several times before they do, which slows things down).
But, I suspect that's not the reason it's slow, especially since read and write speeds are about the same (11.46 / 11.69). 11 MB/s corresponds roughly to 100 Mbps Ethernet.
Both Drobo FS and the T5500 are capable of Gigabit Ethernet. You should be seeing 100 MB/s if the Drobo FS wired Ethernet connectivity is Gigabit end-to-end. How are you connecting the Drobo to the T5500? What are the model numbers of the router/switch/wifi devices the Drobo and T5500 connect through? I suspect one of them is only 100 Mbps speed.
Can you tell me from the PCIe slot information and photos below which slot to put a 4 lane PCIe2 USB 3 or 3.1 card into and how to attach it?
This is how the Slots are populated inside the T5500... Slot 1 PCIe2 x8 FREE Slot 2 PCIe2 x16 75W Motherboard Slot 3 PCIe2 x8 SDI/HDMI Card Slot 4 PCIe2 x16 75W FREE Slot 5 Firewire Slot 6 M-Audio Card
I'd put it in "Slot 1 PCIe2 x8". No need to put it in a x16 slot.
Hopefully the final point... those black SATA connectors are from a photo I got on the internet. The only free black connector I can find in my T5500 is the 6 pin one (the last photo in my last post).
I'll look around again inside the PC some more. If I can't find a free SATA connector, perhaps I can get a Molex to SATA adapter cable that will do the same job?
I have something like this - basically a SATA power cable splitter to give additional connections off your existing SATA power connecters. Optionally, since you have x8/x16 slots (rather than x4, which supply less power), you could probably get a card that doesn't have an additional power connector, but gets it from the PCIe bus instead. It would need to be stated in the spec that that's how it works. I'd probably go with the splitter or some other arrangement to come up with the SATA power connecter - it's more universal. I consider the SATA splitter/extension to be "safer" - you're going SATA power connecter to SATA power connecter, rather than MOLEX or something else to SATA power.
Additional thought: I read that some cards go faster/need UASP. Do you know where Windows 7 Pro 64 bit stands re. UASP?
I could not find any USB 3 cards with Windows 7 driver support for UASP. (As an aside, I couldn't find any USB 3 cards that are bootable, either.) You'll need to download the driver for Windows 7 from the card manufacturer's website. At least with my USB 3 card on Windows 7, it was very important to install the driver BEFORE installing the physical device.
I suspect you'll be able to get your existing Drobo FS to work fine for you with a better router or additional network switch - a potential 10x times increase in performance should make a difference. I'd do the upgrade to USB 3.1 regardless - so much better than USB 2.
If network performance bottleneck is the problem and you don't want to upgrade your network device (probably router or combined router/wifi) you can add-on a Gigabit network switch. Here's a 5-port one for $15, another 8-port for $16. Basically, everything else (PCs, wifi/router or other device that goes out to internet, and Drobo FS) connects to it like a hub. Network-wise, it's invisible and has no performance impact.
I've spent some time studying my Internet/Network setup here and moving cables around. Our office here has two wings - north and south. In the north wing, our Vodafone DSL Broadband comes in and is cabled immediately to a Netgear switcher with cables serving computers and phones in the north wing. A cable runs from this switcher over to another Netgear switcher in the south wing, sending cables to other offices and to my studio. Involved in this setup is a VoiP Grandstream GXP2140 phone system. I haven't set up this system, so had to study it extensively with torch, etc!
Just to quote your last response...
I suspect you'll be able to get your existing Drobo FS to work fine for you with a better router or additional network switch - a potential 10x times increase in performance should make a difference. I'd do the upgrade to USB 3.1 regardless - so much better than USB 2.
If network performance bottleneck is the problem and you don't want to upgrade your network device (probably router or combined router/wifi) you can add-on a Gigabit network switch. Here's a 5-port one for $15, another 8-port for $16. Basically, everything else (PCs, wifi/router or other device that goes out to internet, and Drobo FS) connects to it like a hub. Network-wise, it's invisible and has no performance impact.
Switch 1 Netgear FS726TP Prosafe 24 Port 10/100 Smart Switch with 2 Gigabit Ports. Input from LAN4 flashes Yellow for 100Mbps. Lots of 100Mbps output lines to computers and phones in north wing. But I'm taking an Output from 1 Gigabit Port flashing Green for 1Gb.
This cable runs to south wing of building (10 metres away) into...
Switch 2 Netgear ProSAFE JGS516PE. Input flashing Green for 1Gb. More output lines to computers and phones in south wing.
Two cables are running to my studio. No. 5, which carries signal and PoE, to my phone, flashes Green for 1Gb and Green for PoE at the ProSAFE port. This cable actually runs to my phone and a cable goes back from the phone to my Drobo FS. No. 6, which carries signal to my Dell T5500, flashes Yellow for 100Mbps at the ProSAFE port.
All of these cables are 'embedded', ie running through walls and conduits that can't be got at, except for short lengths at the connector ends. They're all CAT 5e, and a few are CAT 6. I myself reconnected the cable that goes between north and south wings so that it output from a 1Gb port on Switch 1. Previously it came out of a 100Mbps port (Yellow). I did this in the hope of getting a 1Gb signal into Switch 2.
Switch 2 shows 1Gb going to my phone/Drobo and 100Mbps going to my PC. I interchanged the cables at the Switch 2, hoping the 1Gb would appear at the PC, but the indicator turned Yellow. And Yellow also for the phone. So I put them back the way they were.
Suprisingly, the cables going to phones mostly flash Green, but I can't get a 1Gb signal to go to my PC no matter what port I connect it to on Switch2.
Summary To get in a Vodafone Gigabit Router is a costly expense for us here. I was hoping I could continue to receive the internet at 100Mbps but transfer files between my PC and Drobo FS at 1Gbps.
Just reading your last suggestion again...
If network performance bottleneck is the problem and you don't want to upgrade your network device (probably router or combined router/wifi) you can add-on a Gigabit network switch. Here's a 5-port one for $15, another 8-port for $16. Basically, everything else (PCs, wifi/router or other device that goes out to internet, and Drobo FS) connects to it like a hub. Network-wise, it's invisible and has no performance impact.
Given my description above, where would I put the Gigabit network switch you suggest?
Or perhaps I can program the existing switchers to behave differently?
So, there's a definite problem with slow network speed (100 Mbps) between T5500 and Switch 2. The two devices auto-negotiate the speed at which they'll operate. For some reason, they're deciding to talk at 100 Mbps and not Gigabit. (In general, the T5500 really shouldn't be connected to one of the PoE, yellow ports on the Switch - it's not a device that needs Power over Ethernet.)
One, I'd check that your T5500 Broadcom 5754 Gigabit Controller's driver is the latest one on Dell's Support site. Seems to be 15.0.0. I'd check it with Windows Device Manager.
I think the most likely culprit is the Ethernet cable between the T5500 and Switch 2. Some way, a different cable needs to be tried to see if that's the issue. Can you plug the Ethernet cable from the phone (the one going to the Switch) into the T5500 and then make sure the other end of that cable is plugged into a non-PoE (non-yellow) port on the Switch? Then reboot the T5500 and see if the indicator light on the Switch or T5500 show Gigabit speed? Another option might be to move the whole T5500 temporarily to the room with the Switch and connect it with a shorter, known good Ethernet cable and again, see if they talk at Gigabit.
(Note Ethernet cables with aluminum can deteriorate over time. Full copper is more expensive, but can be trouble-free over time. Looking for UL testing can also help to make sure cables are good quality. Usually if they're in the wall fire safety standards apply, too.)
The other question is what speed the Drobo FS is connecting to the phone. What is the make/model of the phone connected to the Drobo? Also, is the phone connected to A/C power or is it using PoE? If necessary, can it be powered from A/C via a power adapter or otherwise not be dependent on PoE?
If only the one cable to the Switch works at Gigabit speed, and the phone supports Gigabit daisy chaining (meaning both its Ethernet connections are Gigabit and it will pass Gigabit speeds through it), but the phone requires PoE (meaning it must be connected directly to a PoE port of a Switch) - you might be able to put a new Switch I suggested where the Drobo is now and connect the Drobo FS and T5500 to the new Switch. This would likely give you Gigabit speed between everything. (You could also probably get a small Switch for your office with PoE, but they're more expensive.)
One, I'd check that your T5500 Broadcom 5754 Gigabit Controller's driver is the latest one on Dell's Support site. Seems to be 15.0.0. I'd check it with Windows Device Manager.
I actually updated all the Dell drivers for my PC, which included a 'critical' bios update. The Broadcom wasn't updated, however. I later found a more recent driver than my own 14.0.07 on Dell's website - 14.1.0, but when I tried to install it, it said there was a more up to date installer already on my PC and wouldn't allow the install. Not finding any other driver on Dell's support pages, I left that alone for the moment. Anyway, updating the driver from Device Manager says that the present driver, 14.0.07, is the most up to date.
If only the one cable to the Switch works at Gigabit speed, and the phone supports Gigabit daisy chaining (meaning both its Ethernet connections are Gigabit and it will pass Gigabit speeds through it), but the phone requires PoE (meaning it must be connected directly to a PoE port of a Switch) - you might be able to put a new Switch I suggested where the Drobo is now and connect the Drobo FS and T5500 to the new Switch. This would likely give you Gigabit speed between everything. (You could also probably get a small Switch for your office with PoE, but they're more expensive.)
Cable 6, that goes from Switch 2 to my T5500 is definitely dodgy. Even if I put it into a non PoE port on Switch 2 (which is a Gigabit Switch), the output is 100Mbps.
I got an old unmanaged Netgear Gigabit Switch (non PoE) and placed it beside the Drobo. Then connected Cable 5 (which has Gigabit signal at Switch 2 and is also PoE for my phone/Drobo). Then I connected the Drobo and my PC directly to the new switch (now Switch 3). CrystalDiskMark registered 4x faster for read and more than 3x faster for write. Horray! But I've lost my phone connection.
Following your suggestion above, I connected Cable 5, as before, to the phone and ran the connection back, not to my PC, but to Switch 3. Gigabit signal flashing! Drobo and PC still directly connected to Switch 3. CrystalDiskMark registed speeds just a little slower than direct connection by Cable 5 to Switch 3, by about 1Mbps slower.
In real copy-speed terms I'm getting double the write speed, maybe 27Mbps. But that's 3 hours instead of 7.5 hours copying data.
Interestingly, there's only a slight loss of speed by going through the phone, which must have Gigabit protocol on board.
So, I'm going to buy a small silent Gigabit Switch to connect up the new way. Perhaps I won't even bother with PoE (more expensive), as going through the phone is only marginally slower.
Also, I notice that all the cabling is CAT 5E. I'll buy CAT 6 cables for the new connections.
That's all sounding pretty good. I don't know if it can be any faster?
Should have thought of it sooner, but you could connect the phone all alone through the "dodgy" Ethernet cable to one of the Switch 2 PoE ports - assuming the phone doesn't need Gigabit speed. Everything else could then go through the good cable to a non-PoE, port on Switch 2. Anyway, sounds like either way will give you Gigabit speeds for T5500 and Drobo locally and out to the rest of the LAN and internet.
Yes, I'd go with Cat6 as well.
If you buy a new Switch, I'd make sure it has auto MDI/MDI-X - most new units do. I think both units I linked to have it. Basically, it allows one Switch to be connected to another without a special cross-over Ethernet cable or port. If Switch 2 has it, it may not be that important for your current setup, but it's a good feature to have.
If the Drobo FS is configured as a single RAID volume, I'm surprised at the around 44/27 MB/s read/write speeds for sequential files. So, you have something like a 10 TB single volume (5 x 2TB)? What RAID level is it configured at?
Does the Drobo FS backup software have a way to multi-stream your backups? This may better utilize the 100 MB/s or so of network bandwidth.
Techgee
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December 18th, 2018 08:00
Have a similar - but single CPU only - X58 chipset, USB 2, PCIe 2.x, SATA II system.
Added a USB 3.0 card (PCIe 2 x1) when they became reasonably cheap years back, but was considering upgrading to USB 3.1 Gen 2 in a USB 3 / SATA III combo card until I skipped over an upgrade to SATA III and went straight for M.2 NVMe.
I mention the following because you're dealing with video files and a M.2 NVMe SSD could potentially help with processing speed there... My system only has one PCIe 2 x8 slot, all the rest are PCIe 1 x1, which have little bandwidth. Was quite frustrated with constrained upgrade options until a PCIe switch card became available, which allowed me to bifurcate/switch the x8 PCIe lanes to (4) x4 M.2 NVMe ports. This allowed me to jump from SATA II performance of ~280 MB/s to half of M.2 NVMe SSD performance of ~1700 MB/s and, with one of a handful of SSDs with a Legacy Option ROM, boot and run Windows 10 on one of the M.2 NVMe SSDs. The T5500 probably has more PCIe slot options, but on my machine I'll need an adapter to go from M.2 NVMe back to a traditional PCIe x4 slot to add USB 3.1 Gen 2 (or USB 3.2 when it comes out next year). Haven't gotten around to that yet...
If you're starting with USB 2, the easiest, although not universal, option may be to get a 2.5 or 3.5" enclosure with a [e]SATA external interface combined with a 2.5/3.5" drive since you've already got an eSATA port on the T5500. The enclosure will likely run at the same speed as your internal SATA II interface - so, no bottleneck at all. I'd get an enclosure that's separately powered. (Note you can usually go SATA to eSATA as long as the cable is short - ideally 2' or less, but 3' might be ok.) Personally, I run an all-SSD setup, otherwise copying small files takes forever - but, whether this is advantageous depends on how you do your backups. Note I believe there are enclosures with both eSATA and USB external interfaces.
If you go USB 3, I'd consider the following:
USB 3 thumb drives usually get sufficient power, but enclosures often don't. They can be fine until doing heavy writes, then the power is insufficient, and they fail. With SSDs, data and device can be lost. I bricked a number of SSDs this way when testing enclosures. Hard drives might be recoverable, but in any case not good. General solution for this is additional power connector beyond USB or a USB "Y" Connector (device gets power from 2 USB ports). Newer USB-A ports and USB-C may not have this issue, but generally with USB-A ports I don't chance it and always use additional power when connecting an enclosure.
Unless you're upgrading your internal drives beyond SATA II, the original USB 3.0 (aka USB 3.1 Gen 1, aka USB 3.2 Gen 1x1) is likely sufficient. There are lots of inexpensive USB 3.0 add-in PCIe cards. Key thing to look for is UASP support in the driver for your OS. UASP is built-in to Windows 10, but may not be there if you're on Windows 7 or XP. Whether you want/can boot from USB 3 may also be a consideration.
To go beyond the original USB 3.0, you'll need a card with more than one PCIe lane and have to pay attention as to whether you'll really get better performance since slots in T5500 are PCIe 2. As you go up in USB 3.x support, cards become more expensive. Also, with 3.x cards, some attention needs to be paid to power each USB port can supply - should at least be up to new specs and maybe over.
Manach
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December 18th, 2018 09:00
Thanks, Techgee, for your indepth knowledge and suggestions.
Yes, I'm considering the eSata enclosure. There's a hotswap version with 4 bays that would be fine. I'd have to make a RAID of it, though, because for backing up, I like it all to go onto the one volume.
Currently I'm using a Drobo FS, 5 bays x 2TB. It appears as one volume, and very cleverly operates that way, but it's on a network and very slow. The non-network Drobo model, 5C, is USB-C. I suppose I could connect by USB 2, but USB 3 is so tempting to try. And yes, the Drobo would be a hefty enclosure to write to, so the USB 3 has to be working properly.
As far as I know, my T5500 has a 4 pin internal Molex power connector. Is that the white one in the image below? I got this picture off the internet.
I've read, too, that this Ankar USB 3 PCI card should work well...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SJGGAE
Whether Windows 7 Professional 64 bit can produce USB 3.0 efficiently out of combining the two is something I have to figure out before I do any damage!
I'd appreciate any further thoughts you have on the above,
Many thanks,
Seamus
Manach
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December 18th, 2018 13:00
Thanks, Techgee. I'll have a go at analyzing the drives to see what's happening.
Seamus
Techgee
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December 18th, 2018 13:00
I assume you can directly read/write to your existing Drobo FS, NAS setup. I'd start with some analysis with something like CrystalDiskMark or equivalent if you haven't already. That will tell you where your bottleneck is and where you're currently at. What results are you seeing now? With Gigabit Ethernet you should be seeing up to 100 MB/s on large file transfers. With hard drives, small file performance will be horrible, but may not matter for your use case.
What drives are in the T5500? I'd do the same analysis of them as well. What's the results on them? There's no need of backup storage that's faster than your main drives.
Techgee
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December 18th, 2018 16:00
For USB, I'd get a card with physical PCIe x4, meaning 4 lanes. It makes no sense to put a single lane x1 card in the T5500 with its x8/x16 slots. Especially since you've got PCIe 2.0, not 3.0.
USB 3.1 Gen 2 (10 Gpbs) cards with 2 USB ports and PCIe x4 (at least physically, might be x2 electrically - but better than x1) are available for $25 or less. Some explicitly support 10 Gpbs on PCIe 2.0, which is what the T5500 has. This is faster than SATA III. There's no way to get this speed with a PCIe 2.0 x1 single lane card.
Manach
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December 19th, 2018 09:00
Just looking through some cards on the internet.
When you say 'single lane', are you referring to the 'Ankar' card in the link I mentioned in previous post? I see it says 'The PCI-E Port support PCI-E X1/X16 slots'. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SJGGAE
I found this PCI-E 2 4 lane card... https://www.scan.co.uk/products/2-port-lycom-usb-31-type-a-compliant-with-x4-x8-or-x16-pci-express-up-to-10gbps
However, I notice it's not connected via the Molex 4 pin cable, like the Ankar card. Can the T5500 run it?
A tech guy said the T5500 doesn't have a 'header' on the motherboard to run USB 3.0, therefore USB 3.0 cards I purchase can't be guaranteed to run on my PC, so I'm not sure what to think after that!
Sorry, a lot of obvious tech ignorance here on my part!
Seamus
Seamus
Manach
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December 20th, 2018 05:00
Hi Techgee,
Here are the MB/s (Seq Q32T1 only) results of my CrystalDiskMark 6 tests...
C Drive Read 103.2 Write 95.18
D Drive Read 130.9 Write 125.9
F Drive Read 139.1 Write 136.9
Drobo Read 11.46 Write 11.69
Firewire Read 42.44 Write 31.56
USB ext Read 29.91 Write 25.11
I attached a Lacie Drive by eSATA and got Read 1.18GB/s Write 150 MB/s
The Drobo is dead slow and the eSATA is fast!
So, I could install an eSATA external hard drive system. But I like the Drobo 5C's functionality and security.
Can you tell me from the PCIe slot information and photos below which slot to put a 4 lane PCIe2 USB 3 or 3.1 card into and how to attach it?
This is how the Slots are populated inside the T5500...
Slot 1 PCIe2 x8 FREE
Slot 2 PCIe2 x16 75W Motherboard
Slot 3 PCIe2 x8 SDI/HDMI Card
Slot 4 PCIe2 x16 75W FREE
Slot 5 Firewire
Slot 6 M-Audio Card
Additionally, the free, useable cables I can see are (see photos)...
Molex 4 pin, with a smaller FDD 4 pin piggybacking the Molex.
And a Black 6 pin cable.
Techgee
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December 20th, 2018 08:00
Exactly - the Ankar card above is a single lane x1 card. Compare the width of the Ankar PCIe gold connector tabs with that of the Lycom, which is a 4 lane (x4) card (physically, anyway). (x8 and x16 cards would be wider still, of course. In general, the more lanes, the higher the bandwidth capacity. Graphic cards are x16 for a reason.)
That's exactly the kind of card you want. It's also capable of a good amount of power (2A) to each port.
The extra power connecter on the Lycom card is a SATA power connecter. They're the black connecters in the first photo you posted. So, you've got what you need there, as long as one of them will reach.
I have no idea what this 'tech guy' is talking about (and I don't think he does either).
Manach
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December 20th, 2018 09:00
Thanks for that, Techgee! I'm nearly there!
Hopefully the final point... those black SATA connectors are from a photo I got on the internet. The only free black connector I can find in my T5500 is the 6 pin one (the last photo in my last post).
I'll look around again inside the PC some more. If I can't find a free SATA connector, perhaps I can get a Molex to SATA adapter cable that will do the same job?
Alternatively, can my free Slot 4 PCIe2 x16 75W power the card without needing a connected SATA cable? ie does power come to it straight from the 'bus'?
Additional thought: I read that some cards go faster/need UASP. Do you know where Windows 7 Pro 64 bit stands re. UASP?
Seamus
Techgee
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December 20th, 2018 09:00
Internally, the Drobo FS running RAID 5 is likely easily doing over 200 MB/s, and probably over 400 MB/s with good hard drives. Reasons it might not be are fragmentation (I doubt it's that bad) or a failing drive (reads/write succeed, but have to be repeated several times before they do, which slows things down).
But, I suspect that's not the reason it's slow, especially since read and write speeds are about the same (11.46 / 11.69). 11 MB/s corresponds roughly to 100 Mbps Ethernet.
Both Drobo FS and the T5500 are capable of Gigabit Ethernet. You should be seeing 100 MB/s if the Drobo FS wired Ethernet connectivity is Gigabit end-to-end. How are you connecting the Drobo to the T5500? What are the model numbers of the router/switch/wifi devices the Drobo and T5500 connect through? I suspect one of them is only 100 Mbps speed.
I'd put it in "Slot 1 PCIe2 x8". No need to put it in a x16 slot.
Techgee
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December 20th, 2018 10:00
I have something like this - basically a SATA power cable splitter to give additional connections off your existing SATA power connecters. Optionally, since you have x8/x16 slots (rather than x4, which supply less power), you could probably get a card that doesn't have an additional power connector, but gets it from the PCIe bus instead. It would need to be stated in the spec that that's how it works. I'd probably go with the splitter or some other arrangement to come up with the SATA power connecter - it's more universal. I consider the SATA splitter/extension to be "safer" - you're going SATA power connecter to SATA power connecter, rather than MOLEX or something else to SATA power.
I could not find any USB 3 cards with Windows 7 driver support for UASP. (As an aside, I couldn't find any USB 3 cards that are bootable, either.) You'll need to download the driver for Windows 7 from the card manufacturer's website. At least with my USB 3 card on Windows 7, it was very important to install the driver BEFORE installing the physical device.
I suspect you'll be able to get your existing Drobo FS to work fine for you with a better router or additional network switch - a potential 10x times increase in performance should make a difference. I'd do the upgrade to USB 3.1 regardless - so much better than USB 2.
If network performance bottleneck is the problem and you don't want to upgrade your network device (probably router or combined router/wifi) you can add-on a Gigabit network switch. Here's a 5-port one for $15, another 8-port for $16. Basically, everything else (PCs, wifi/router or other device that goes out to internet, and Drobo FS) connects to it like a hub. Network-wise, it's invisible and has no performance impact.
Manach
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December 21st, 2018 02:00
Hi Techgee,
I've spent some time studying my Internet/Network setup here and moving cables around. Our office here has two wings - north and south. In the north wing, our Vodafone DSL Broadband comes in and is cabled immediately to a Netgear switcher with cables serving computers and phones in the north wing. A cable runs from this switcher over to another Netgear switcher in the south wing, sending cables to other offices and to my studio. Involved in this setup is a VoiP Grandstream GXP2140 phone system. I haven't set up this system, so had to study it extensively with torch, etc!
Just to quote your last response...
Here are the details...
Router Vodafone HG 659 'Simply Broadband' 100Mbps LAN4: Connected Full 100Mbps
Cable from LAN4 runs into...
Switch 1 Netgear FS726TP Prosafe 24 Port 10/100 Smart Switch with 2 Gigabit Ports.
Input from LAN4 flashes Yellow for 100Mbps. Lots of 100Mbps output lines to computers and phones in north wing.
But I'm taking an Output from 1 Gigabit Port flashing Green for 1Gb.
This cable runs to south wing of building (10 metres away) into...
Switch 2 Netgear ProSAFE JGS516PE. Input flashing Green for 1Gb. More output lines to computers and phones in south wing.
Two cables are running to my studio.
No. 5, which carries signal and PoE, to my phone, flashes Green for 1Gb and Green for PoE at the ProSAFE port. This cable actually runs to my phone and a cable goes back from the phone to my Drobo FS.
No. 6, which carries signal to my Dell T5500, flashes Yellow for 100Mbps at the ProSAFE port.
All of these cables are 'embedded', ie running through walls and conduits that can't be got at, except for short lengths at the connector ends. They're all CAT 5e, and a few are CAT 6. I myself reconnected the cable that goes between north and south wings so that it output from a 1Gb port on Switch 1. Previously it came out of a 100Mbps port (Yellow). I did this in the hope of getting a 1Gb signal into Switch 2.
Switch 2 shows 1Gb going to my phone/Drobo and 100Mbps going to my PC. I interchanged the cables at the Switch 2, hoping the 1Gb would appear at the PC, but the indicator turned Yellow. And Yellow also for the phone.
So I put them back the way they were.
Suprisingly, the cables going to phones mostly flash Green, but I can't get a 1Gb signal to go to my PC no matter what port I connect it to on Switch2.
Summary To get in a Vodafone Gigabit Router is a costly expense for us here. I was hoping I could continue to receive the internet at 100Mbps but transfer files between my PC and Drobo FS at 1Gbps.
Just reading your last suggestion again...
If network performance bottleneck is the problem and you don't want to upgrade your network device (probably router or combined router/wifi) you can add-on a Gigabit network switch. Here's a 5-port one for $15, another 8-port for $16. Basically, everything else (PCs, wifi/router or other device that goes out to internet, and Drobo FS) connects to it like a hub. Network-wise, it's invisible and has no performance impact.
Given my description above, where would I put the Gigabit network switch you suggest?
Or perhaps I can program the existing switchers to behave differently?
Many thanks,
Seamus
Techgee
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December 21st, 2018 08:00
So, there's a definite problem with slow network speed (100 Mbps) between T5500 and Switch 2. The two devices auto-negotiate the speed at which they'll operate. For some reason, they're deciding to talk at 100 Mbps and not Gigabit. (In general, the T5500 really shouldn't be connected to one of the PoE, yellow ports on the Switch - it's not a device that needs Power over Ethernet.)
One, I'd check that your T5500 Broadcom 5754 Gigabit Controller's driver is the latest one on Dell's Support site. Seems to be 15.0.0. I'd check it with Windows Device Manager.
I think the most likely culprit is the Ethernet cable between the T5500 and Switch 2. Some way, a different cable needs to be tried to see if that's the issue. Can you plug the Ethernet cable from the phone (the one going to the Switch) into the T5500 and then make sure the other end of that cable is plugged into a non-PoE (non-yellow) port on the Switch? Then reboot the T5500 and see if the indicator light on the Switch or T5500 show Gigabit speed? Another option might be to move the whole T5500 temporarily to the room with the Switch and connect it with a shorter, known good Ethernet cable and again, see if they talk at Gigabit.
(Note Ethernet cables with aluminum can deteriorate over time. Full copper is more expensive, but can be trouble-free over time. Looking for UL testing can also help to make sure cables are good quality. Usually if they're in the wall fire safety standards apply, too.)
The other question is what speed the Drobo FS is connecting to the phone. What is the make/model of the phone connected to the Drobo? Also, is the phone connected to A/C power or is it using PoE? If necessary, can it be powered from A/C via a power adapter or otherwise not be dependent on PoE?
If only the one cable to the Switch works at Gigabit speed, and the phone supports Gigabit daisy chaining (meaning both its Ethernet connections are Gigabit and it will pass Gigabit speeds through it), but the phone requires PoE (meaning it must be connected directly to a PoE port of a Switch) - you might be able to put a new Switch I suggested where the Drobo is now and connect the Drobo FS and T5500 to the new Switch. This would likely give you Gigabit speed between everything. (You could also probably get a small Switch for your office with PoE, but they're more expensive.)
Manach
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December 21st, 2018 09:00
Here's the latest, reporting some success...
One, I'd check that your T5500 Broadcom 5754 Gigabit Controller's driver is the latest one on Dell's Support site. Seems to be 15.0.0. I'd check it with Windows Device Manager.
I actually updated all the Dell drivers for my PC, which included a 'critical' bios update. The Broadcom wasn't updated, however. I later found a more recent driver than my own 14.0.07 on Dell's website - 14.1.0, but when I tried to install it, it said there was a more up to date installer already on my PC and wouldn't allow the install. Not finding any other driver on Dell's support pages, I left that alone for the moment. Anyway, updating the driver from Device Manager says that the present driver, 14.0.07, is the most up to date.
If only the one cable to the Switch works at Gigabit speed, and the phone supports Gigabit daisy chaining (meaning both its Ethernet connections are Gigabit and it will pass Gigabit speeds through it), but the phone requires PoE (meaning it must be connected directly to a PoE port of a Switch) - you might be able to put a new Switch I suggested where the Drobo is now and connect the Drobo FS and T5500 to the new Switch. This would likely give you Gigabit speed between everything. (You could also probably get a small Switch for your office with PoE, but they're more expensive.)
Cable 6, that goes from Switch 2 to my T5500 is definitely dodgy. Even if I put it into a non PoE port on Switch 2 (which is a Gigabit Switch), the output is 100Mbps.
I got an old unmanaged Netgear Gigabit Switch (non PoE) and placed it beside the Drobo. Then connected Cable 5 (which has Gigabit signal at Switch 2 and is also PoE for my phone/Drobo). Then I connected the Drobo and my PC directly to the new switch (now Switch 3). CrystalDiskMark registered 4x faster for read and more than 3x faster for write. Horray! But I've lost my phone connection.
Following your suggestion above, I connected Cable 5, as before, to the phone and ran the connection back, not to my PC, but to Switch 3. Gigabit signal flashing! Drobo and PC still directly connected to Switch 3.
CrystalDiskMark registed speeds just a little slower than direct connection by Cable 5 to Switch 3, by about 1Mbps slower.
In real copy-speed terms I'm getting double the write speed, maybe 27Mbps. But that's 3 hours instead of 7.5 hours copying data.
Interestingly, there's only a slight loss of speed by going through the phone, which must have Gigabit protocol on board.
So, I'm going to buy a small silent Gigabit Switch to connect up the new way. Perhaps I won't even bother with PoE (more expensive), as going through the phone is only marginally slower.
Also, I notice that all the cabling is CAT 5E. I'll buy CAT 6 cables for the new connections.
That's all sounding pretty good. I don't know if it can be any faster?
Seamus
Techgee
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December 22nd, 2018 12:00
Sounds like progress!
Should have thought of it sooner, but you could connect the phone all alone through the "dodgy" Ethernet cable to one of the Switch 2 PoE ports - assuming the phone doesn't need Gigabit speed. Everything else could then go through the good cable to a non-PoE, port on Switch 2. Anyway, sounds like either way will give you Gigabit speeds for T5500 and Drobo locally and out to the rest of the LAN and internet.
Yes, I'd go with Cat6 as well.
If you buy a new Switch, I'd make sure it has auto MDI/MDI-X - most new units do. I think both units I linked to have it. Basically, it allows one Switch to be connected to another without a special cross-over Ethernet cable or port. If Switch 2 has it, it may not be that important for your current setup, but it's a good feature to have.
If the Drobo FS is configured as a single RAID volume, I'm surprised at the around 44/27 MB/s read/write speeds for sequential files. So, you have something like a 10 TB single volume (5 x 2TB)? What RAID level is it configured at?
Does the Drobo FS backup software have a way to multi-stream your backups? This may better utilize the 100 MB/s or so of network bandwidth.