One can be forgive for thinking so, however given the fact that a lot of people know this, you'd also think that if people know that a Dell monitor made by BenQ has problems, you could also expect the BenQ branded monitor to have problems too!
Its an interesting point and most people will probably never know, but perhaps their initial batch of LCD panels was more of an "experimental" version, and now that they've perfected their techniques and designs are ready to release their own. Certainly if future Dell monitors made by BenQ continue to have such issues, then we can certainly think that they do in fact use these dodgy tactics!!!
I just got my 5th return over the course of a few months now and I FINALLY got the A03 Mexico. Those customer service reps can be tricky sometimes. One told me I had to talk to Dell Technical support first. Of course the Support since it's all outsourced has no clue what I'm talking about and ended up just wasting time.
jono181 can you please tell us if you see any banding in your A03 using the gradient tests (vertical+horizontal) also please try the component ocnnections and tell us if its good quality?
Review of the [technically similar?] Benq FP241W now out - they seem to like it. Has HDMI [& DVI] with HDCP & no apparent display issues with Displaymate - cost is £646 [2407 is £754 in UK]
www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?page=8150
Current version of HDMI and DVI are almost the same thing.
You can now find DVI to HDMI adapters for $30.
The only difference is that HDMI also renders sounds.
dctokyo:
I haven't read enough of the forum to know if somebody has replied to your problem, but I just wanted to let you know that I had the same problem with my Dell 2407-A02 monitor. I would have it running for an hour or so and then the screen would just go blank. The power button remained green and the only thing I could do was pull out the power chord to reset it. Dell tried to convince me that it was my PC that was the problem. I'm glad that I found your post so that I know it's not my PC.
I finally convinced them that it was a problem with their monitor so now they are sending me out a "new" monitor. I'm hoping this one will be an A03, and that it won't have dead pixels or the same problem my old one has. You're not alone.
Hi
johnysavage, thanks for the post, I had two A03's that the screen would just go blank. The power button remained green and the only thing I could do was pull out the power chord to reset it just like you and Dell told me the same thing, well the 4th one is working Ok but has some dead pixels, well at least the monitor is working ok so far :).
Hi
wood2395, I have no problems with banding, the picture is great except for some dead pixels, I am using the DVI port by the way with a x1800xt dual link video card and dual-link video cable. Really loving playing BF2, just wish I could get it to run in a 1900X1200 instead of the 1600X1200.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the system menu of A03 is slightly different to the one present in A02. One particular option (new in A03) has caught my eye: Soft Dither (On by default). I wonder if this is how the vertical banding was fixed in A03.
Would you be able to set it to Off temporarily and then (with it Off) test for vertical banding using a DVI connection?
"I don't know if you've noticed, but the system menu of A03 is slightly different to the one present in A02. One particular option (new in A03) has caught my eye: Soft Dither (On by default). I wonder if this is how the vertical banding was fixed in A03."
Is this another change besides the OSD update?
This has been confirmed from a screen shot.
Good Day:)
Message Edited by all the facts on 09-22-2006 12:24 AM
Here are the results of some of my experiments w/ my 2407 rev. A02. I know, this is the "mythical A03" thread but this might help explain why (a few) people claim they see no banding on their A02...
All tests performed in native resolution (1920x1200). (Using a different resolution which exercises the monitor's scaler might be a good experiment for the nit-picking ones willing to expose even more issues here ;)...).
a) In DVI mode, using default settings, I only see vertical gradients banding artifacts (horizontal gradients are smooth). Banding (both vertical AND HORIZONTAL) gets worse when changing e.g. luminosity, color settings (e.g. PC Red/Blue/Custom) as well as factory/service menus color settings... In other words, changing any of these settings seems to reduce the "precision" assigned to each affected color component (red, green and/or blue)! (N.B. in this mode, I do no see any mouse ghosting/purple trail or any similar artifacts...).
Extra note here: Not sure if it is somehow related to "rampant speculations" of a 6+2 bit driving of this monitor but using default settings, vertical gradients seem to produce smthing like 64 color bands or so... which interestingly would correspond to 6 bit of precision...
b) In VGA mode, using default settings, I see no banding at all (vertical or horizontal gradients). Changing settings as described in a) above will produce similar results as in DVI mode.
(N.B. in this mode, I do see a few (very faint) mouse ghosting/purple trails artifacts from time to time... Also, moving the mouse over a vertical color gradient picture seems to slightly affect all the color of the pixels directly underneath the mouse cursor... E.g. you can see a faint vertical trail driectly under the mouse that extends all the way to the bottom of the screen which follows every mouse movements...).
N.B. I did notice that one of the sub-menu (the first of the color settings menus) in the factory settings seem to be locked (not user-changeable) and I believe whatever factory settings were applied here may have some effect on the precision available to each color component! This might explain why some people reported seeing no color banding issues on their A02 (e.g. one particular person had two rev. A02 to test with: one had vertical gradient banding the other didn't!)
Anyhow, the more I keep tweaking some settings on this monitor and the more I get convinced that the banding issues are not necessarily hardware-related (at least not directly) but rather the direct effect of a poor implementation in the firmware. E.g. luminosity setting should only affect backlight intensity, not the precision available to each color component!!
For what it's worth, this monitor should never have passed any reputable QA testing... I really hope someone at Dell is reading these forums and will realize whoever is in charge of this monitor needs to initiate a complete revamp of their firmware that will fix all these issues!
Anyone care to comment/add their own experiment results?
My 2 cents.
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:43 PM
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:52 PM
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:55 PM
2407 A03's are shipping from various hubs internationally.
This is a list of very "real" issues that affect some posters here in one way or another. They would like to see these issues addressed and corrected, if possible, that's why ChrisM has forwarded the list to BenQ for their implementation consideration in future versions of the 2407. The previous model 2405 went through 7 version updates and was recognized as one of the best LCD's on the market until the end of its product life cycle. The "Nit Pickers" here, range from casual users to highly educated individuals with technological, engineering and various other professional backgrounds that aid Dell with constructive feedback for the development of cutting edge electronic peripherals such as these monitors.
The current list:
(1) The 1600x1200 fixed aspect (1:1) has NOT been fixed. The 1:1 option is still grayed out at 1600x1200. This is not good when you have an ATI graphic card.
(2) The inability to set 1600x1200 mode into 4:3 is one thing, but having this monitor forget about 4:3 setting is even more annoying. Whenever I run older games or other apps that uses fixed resolutions (such as starcraft, diablo2 etc), I'll have to navigate through the menu and set the 4:3 mode, then when monitor switches back to wide screen resolution of desktop, it seems forget about such setting and makes me navigate the menu to set 4:3 every single time whenever I start those programs.
(3) Same problem with PIP, input always defaults to S-video no matter what, when I switch to different input (i.e. component) and then shuts pip off, when I turn pip back on it always resets back to s-video.
(4) Moving mouse over bright backgrounds leaves a shimmery yellow, pink or green trail a few pixels wide on the A02 and A03.
(5) The whole screen shimmers when scrolling fast.
(6) Video tearing on 720p over both component/DVI when in 1:1 mode See http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=58435 and http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=62689
(7) Incorrectly displays 1080i over component giving a usable image.
(8) Vertical and horizontal banding in multimedia and gaming modes.
If anyone has any other issues please forward those to ChrisM for Dell's consideration.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This information may clear up the 8-bit issue.
Quote from ChrisM, Dell, from FAQ's list sticky.
"Updated information - 2407WFP is a true 8bit panel, not 6bit + 2bit dithering. It can display the full 16.7 million colors."
URL http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=62161
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other information.
You might find this interesting:
LCD panels and LCD projectors can manifest a problem known as vertical banding.
LCD vertical banding is a flaw that can occur in the manufacturing process of the LCD panels themselves, and some LCD panels will tend to manifest it more noticeably than others. The panels that cause the most visible problems are usually weeded out in the vendor's quality control process.
However, those that create just a hint of banding often pass through QC, since it is prohibitively expensive to discard all parts that exhibit flaws which may have no practical impact on picture quality.
So, we end up with a situation in which some LCD panels, even within a given production run on one model, will have no banding at all, some may have a hint of it that does not rise to the level of a significant issue, and some may have a more visible problem that really does impair the enjoyment of the viewing experience. In the latter case, sometimes the problem can be mitigated with internal adjustments made by the dealer or vendor service departments, and sometimes the LCD panels or the entire unit need to be replaced.
This is just one reason why some here see banding with different results from different panels.
Resolved:
1. Dell and suppliers should work towards providing consumer friendly adjustable LCD's so they can adjust these LCD's to eliminate or minimize the banding issues.
Some LCD panels offer several options, "Dither Options", to eliminate banding or noise by utilizing various algorithmic noise filters for use in different LCD applications.
Thanks to RadxGe, for the definitive proof (picture) of the hidden menu obvious firmware update in the A03's. A "Soft Dither" option has been added to A03’s. This is an option that most likely has an impact on banding and noise.
Firmware, hardware and the manufacturing process all have an influence on the end product.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In regards to quality Control:
"DFSS ( Design For Six Sigma) is about developing a new product or service that is defect free. DFSS combines many of the tools that are used to improve existing products or services and integrates voice of the customer and simulation methods to predict new process and product performance."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Huggy_Bear:
"whoever is in charge of this monitor needs to initiate a complete revamp of their firmware that will fix all these issues!"
That I agree with 100%. Hopefully the list ChrisM forwarded to BenQ will result in making your statement a reality in the near future.
As always, post your feedback, concerns and ideas no matter how big or small.
Cyberdog100
17 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 09:00
Its an interesting point and most people will probably never know, but perhaps their initial batch of LCD panels was more of an "experimental" version, and now that they've perfected their techniques and designs are ready to release their own. Certainly if future Dell monitors made by BenQ continue to have such issues, then we can certainly think that they do in fact use these dodgy tactics!!!
jono181
9 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 15:00
AssyrianKing
75 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 16:00
WifieAndChips
3 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 20:00
www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?page=8150
Only one review, but seems worth considering
M
all the facts
2 Intern
•
983 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 22:00
(Please Note: Not an advert, for tech. comparison only )
120+ pics and I see very minor banding in some of the pics and gradients no better or worse than my 2407’s in desktop mode.
What Does Everyone Else See? I know there will be mixed opinions. :)
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fit.flash920.com%2Ff%2Fdiy%2F069%2F4%2F319982.htm&lp=zh_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
I personally don’t like BenQ’s warranty. No advanced exchange.
Good day.
radxge2
77 Posts
0
September 13th, 2006 23:00
Current version of HDMI and DVI are almost the same thing.
You can now find DVI to HDMI adapters for $30.
The only difference is that HDMI also renders sounds.
johnysavage
1 Message
0
September 14th, 2006 02:00
I haven't read enough of the forum to know if somebody has replied to your problem, but I just wanted to let you know that I had the same problem with my Dell 2407-A02 monitor. I would have it running for an hour or so and then the screen would just go blank. The power button remained green and the only thing I could do was pull out the power chord to reset it. Dell tried to convince me that it was my PC that was the problem. I'm glad that I found your post so that I know it's not my PC.
I finally convinced them that it was a problem with their monitor so now they are sending me out a "new" monitor. I'm hoping this one will be an A03, and that it won't have dead pixels or the same problem my old one has. You're not alone.
dctokyo
36 Posts
0
September 14th, 2006 14:00
Message Edited by dctokyo on 09-14-200610:26 AM
wood2395
7 Posts
0
September 14th, 2006 16:00
dctokyo
36 Posts
0
September 15th, 2006 05:00
_Radu_
6 Posts
0
September 15th, 2006 06:00
all the facts
2 Intern
•
983 Posts
0
September 15th, 2006 20:00
Is this true?
"I don't know if you've noticed, but the system menu of A03 is slightly different to the one present in A02. One particular option (new in A03) has caught my eye: Soft Dither (On by default). I wonder if this is how the vertical banding was fixed in A03."
Is this another change besides the OSD update?
This has been confirmed from a screen shot.
Good Day:)
Message Edited by all the facts on 09-22-2006 12:24 AM
Smoothieboy
147 Posts
0
September 15th, 2006 22:00
Huggy_Bear
52 Posts
0
September 18th, 2006 20:00
Here are the results of some of my experiments w/ my 2407 rev. A02. I know, this is the "mythical A03" thread but this might help explain why (a few) people claim they see no banding on their A02...
All tests performed in native resolution (1920x1200). (Using a different resolution which exercises the monitor's scaler might be a good experiment for the nit-picking ones willing to expose even more issues here ;)...).
a) In DVI mode, using default settings, I only see vertical gradients banding artifacts (horizontal gradients are smooth). Banding (both vertical AND HORIZONTAL) gets worse when changing e.g. luminosity, color settings (e.g. PC Red/Blue/Custom) as well as factory/service menus color settings... In other words, changing any of these settings seems to reduce the "precision" assigned to each affected color component (red, green and/or blue)! (N.B. in this mode, I do no see any mouse ghosting/purple trail or any similar artifacts...).
Extra note here: Not sure if it is somehow related to "rampant speculations" of a 6+2 bit driving of this monitor but using default settings, vertical gradients seem to produce smthing like 64 color bands or so... which interestingly would correspond to 6 bit of precision...
b) In VGA mode, using default settings, I see no banding at all (vertical or horizontal gradients). Changing settings as described in a) above will produce similar results as in DVI mode.
(N.B. in this mode, I do see a few (very faint) mouse ghosting/purple trails artifacts from time to time... Also, moving the mouse over a vertical color gradient picture seems to slightly affect all the color of the pixels directly underneath the mouse cursor... E.g. you can see a faint vertical trail driectly under the mouse that extends all the way to the bottom of the screen which follows every mouse movements...).
N.B. I did notice that one of the sub-menu (the first of the color settings menus) in the factory settings seem to be locked (not user-changeable) and I believe whatever factory settings were applied here may have some effect on the precision available to each color component! This might explain why some people reported seeing no color banding issues on their A02 (e.g. one particular person had two rev. A02 to test with: one had vertical gradient banding the other didn't!)
Anyhow, the more I keep tweaking some settings on this monitor and the more I get convinced that the banding issues are not necessarily hardware-related (at least not directly) but rather the direct effect of a poor implementation in the firmware. E.g. luminosity setting should only affect backlight intensity, not the precision available to each color component!!
For what it's worth, this monitor should never have passed any reputable QA testing... I really hope someone at Dell is reading these forums and will realize whoever is in charge of this monitor needs to initiate a complete revamp of their firmware that will fix all these issues!
Anyone care to comment/add their own experiment results?
My 2 cents.
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:43 PM
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:52 PM
Message Edited by Huggy_Bear on 09-18-2006 04:55 PM
all the facts
2 Intern
•
983 Posts
0
September 19th, 2006 05:00
2407 A03's are shipping from various hubs internationally.
This is a list of very "real" issues that affect some posters here in one way or another. They would like to see these issues addressed and corrected, if possible, that's why ChrisM has forwarded the list to BenQ for their implementation consideration in future versions of the 2407. The previous model 2405 went through 7 version updates and was recognized as one of the best LCD's on the market until the end of its product life cycle. The "Nit Pickers" here, range from casual users to highly educated individuals with technological, engineering and various other professional backgrounds that aid Dell with constructive feedback for the development of cutting edge electronic peripherals such as these monitors.
The current list:
(1) The 1600x1200 fixed aspect (1:1) has NOT been fixed. The 1:1 option is still grayed out at 1600x1200. This is not good when you have an ATI graphic card.
(2) The inability to set 1600x1200 mode into 4:3 is one thing, but having this monitor forget about 4:3 setting is even more annoying. Whenever I run older games or other apps that uses fixed resolutions (such as starcraft, diablo2 etc), I'll have to navigate through the menu and set the 4:3 mode, then when monitor switches back to wide screen resolution of desktop, it seems forget about such setting and makes me navigate the menu to set 4:3 every single time whenever I start those programs.
(3) Same problem with PIP, input always defaults to S-video no matter what, when I switch to different input (i.e. component) and then shuts pip off, when I turn pip back on it always resets back to s-video.
(4) Moving mouse over bright backgrounds leaves a shimmery yellow, pink or green trail a few pixels wide on the A02 and A03.
(5) The whole screen shimmers when scrolling fast.
(6) Video tearing on 720p over both component/DVI when in 1:1 mode See http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=58435 and http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=62689
(7) Incorrectly displays 1080i over component giving a usable image.
(8) Vertical and horizontal banding in multimedia and gaming modes.
If anyone has any other issues please forward those to ChrisM for Dell's consideration.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This information may clear up the 8-bit issue.
Quote from ChrisM, Dell, from FAQ's list sticky.
"Updated information - 2407WFP is a true 8bit panel, not 6bit + 2bit dithering. It can display the full 16.7 million colors."
URL http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=62161
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other information.
You might find this interesting:
LCD panels and LCD projectors can manifest a problem known as vertical banding.
LCD vertical banding is a flaw that can occur in the manufacturing process of the LCD panels themselves, and some LCD panels will tend to manifest it more noticeably than others. The panels that cause the most visible problems are usually weeded out in the vendor's quality control process.
However, those that create just a hint of banding often pass through QC, since it is prohibitively expensive to discard all parts that exhibit flaws which may have no practical impact on picture quality.
So, we end up with a situation in which some LCD panels, even within a given production run on one model, will have no banding at all, some may have a hint of it that does not rise to the level of a significant issue, and some may have a more visible problem that really does impair the enjoyment of the viewing experience. In the latter case, sometimes the problem can be mitigated with internal adjustments made by the dealer or vendor service departments, and sometimes the LCD panels or the entire unit need to be replaced.
This is just one reason why some here see banding with different results from different panels.
Resolved:
1. Dell and suppliers should work towards providing consumer friendly adjustable LCD's so they can adjust these LCD's to eliminate or minimize the banding issues.
Some LCD panels offer several options, "Dither Options", to eliminate banding or noise by utilizing various algorithmic noise filters for use in different LCD applications.
Thanks to RadxGe, for the definitive proof (picture) of the hidden menu obvious firmware update in the A03's. A "Soft Dither" option has been added to A03’s. This is an option that most likely has an impact on banding and noise.
Firmware, hardware and the manufacturing process all have an influence on the end product.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In regards to quality Control:
"DFSS ( Design For Six Sigma) is about developing a new product or service that is defect free. DFSS combines many of the tools that are used to improve existing products or services and integrates voice of the customer and simulation methods to predict new process and product performance."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Huggy_Bear:
"whoever is in charge of this monitor needs to initiate a complete revamp of their firmware that will fix all these issues!"
That I agree with 100%. Hopefully the list ChrisM forwarded to BenQ will result in making your statement a reality in the near future.
As always, post your feedback, concerns and ideas no matter how big or small.
Good day all:)