Don't sweat Mav and Csmith... We all know the type. They're in every office. We all grew up with them.
I will agree with one point. Baseless whining is annoying. On the other hand, if I had seen this firestorm of threads before I bought a Dell WSXGA, it would have saved me a lot of grief. So in that way, it's purpose is to warn off other folk to whom quaility might matter.
The true value in these irate posts is not baseless and certainly not whining. But don't try and convince a coupla fellas that seem to get a genuine kick out of shouting 'Caveat emptor' at some understandably tick'd off customers. Like I said, we all know the type...
I'm not saying that Dell shouldn't replace the LCD's, I'm just saying that the job of the Dell mods. is NOT to type up responses to you. I've already said what their job is...
ive given up talking to violaten hes become unreasonable.
Like i said befoe 50K+ Units sent every month give or take a hundred units Samsung Screens is used for every size with WSXGA screens being the highest in demand then WUXGA tell me people in your opinion how do fill in orders if one of your suppliers cannot meet the demands? Solutions would be to delay the shipping of your unit by telling you the screen is on back order until one is alotted towards your particular model which can be anywhere from 1 day to 40 days sort of like the VooDoo PC's method of it. Another would be disable the option in the build order until theres some available. OR! this could be the answer... GET ANOTHER manufacturer to provide screens to alleviate the demands? yeah im pretty sure i went down this path.
Regarding people who are complaining now? violaten said it flat out "were going to give the messege by returning the system and not buying from dell again" ::applauds:: but what about those of you who had it for over 30 days? it seems to me the only ones complaining really are the ones who recently got there systems with the Mr9600 which was well pointed out hasnt been around long enough to void your returns. Those of you who had your systems longer? try selling it off to ebay and get an entirely new system.
The person who made a direct comparrison against a desktop lcd should not speak about technical comparrisons. To compare a laptop LCD and a desktop LCD is incredibly unfair. The fastest LCD in desktops achieve 12 MS in response time and the highest in colors is 16.7 million with MUCH higher contrast ratios compared to the laptops topping at 20ms for laptops and 264K colors.
I can understand the need to compalin but to actually do it and for the most annoying part to see related threads in forum is annoying your actually putting priority for those threads over the ones where people ahve REAL problems (blank display, funny noise hardrive makes, warrenty coverage" stuff like that. If you were one with a real problem wouldnt you want direct attention instead of the people who are putting up these 200+ reslponse threads?
All in all the " P ro b l e m " is not widespread for those who actually can tell the difference between the two manufacturers id say forum wise its limited to at most 300 people lets compare that to how many thats shipped this month? i'll be back with exact figures at the official end of QTR4 of 20003.
The minute Dell shipped customer support to India anyone buying their systems should have known the customer was NO LONGER the priority and that customer service/satisfaction were less important to Dell than 10 years ago.
There is a fine distinction here. Did Dell substitute a product with lower specifications for a product with higher specs that was out of stock? Did they advertise the higher spec and then substitute a lower one? Some say yes that is what they did, if they did it's shameful. If not, Dell has the right to include whatever monitor they choose just like you have the right to return it.
Dell has always been overprice and overrated IMO. The only laptop I have owned recently that gave me not a whisper of trouble was a 5105-s608 from Toshiba. No worn keys, no bad displays etc. But, I took a shot at the new HP with the 17 WSXGA recently. It went back to the store....it was the biggest piece of refuse I ever owned. I returned it mainly for the touchpad which is darn near impossible to use. Upon returning it I found I was one of many to do the same thing for the same reason. HP knows the touchpad is subpar but still ships the unit. You can barely function by using the touchpad it is so bad. It also had the terrible Hitachi screen.
Looking at options from other vendors including Dell, I decided to wait until better screens are available for laptops. I loved the XBrite Sony 16.1 uxga...but it's only available with somewhat dated video technology. In the meantime I built a nice desktop for about $1200 and added a Hitachi 17" desktop LCD (fast refresh and very very bright).
Maverick, if Dell was shipping LCDs that meet the specs they promise, your point would be valid. But just because the screen is "better than other laptops with 17" LCDs", doesn't mean it's acceptable. I agree we shouldn't compare the Hitatchi to desktop LCDs, but we should compare it to the Samsung as that does meet the spec.
And no, it's not good business practice to promise something and give less. What about if we got a slower processor than promised? We're getting a slower screen than promised. To me a slower monitor is worse than having a slower processor. Like I said I notice it every second, I wouldn't with a slower processor.
Sure, no problem. As soon as I get back my money for returning it. Which I probably won't, seeing as it's not their "policy."
Since I end up with a deficit and a defective product, I, and everyone else that shares this problem, has the right to discuss, analyze, muse, rant, bicker, query, and complain about the situation to prevent others from becoming hosed (I'm sorry if this is a problem for your "investment" or something, maybe you should have picked a company that doesn't pull tricks like this. Live and learn, I guess. Don't blame us.) and losing time and money.
Then why complain? your returning it clearly i see this in your sig this post should be over.
Anyone else who feels similar to violaten ask yourself if your returning the system and if you are do NOT POST i think returning the system is clue enough for dell theres no need to keep bumping this post to the top
as your point keeps aiming for is the validity of the specs for the hitachi screens which no one can confirm simple as that no more posts unless theres some real information about this ok people?
Yeah Maverick, the issue is not that there was a replacement, but that it was replaced with something that people everywhere noticed as considerably inferior. You have to understand that before talking about how this thread is of lower priority than other "real" ones. This is pretty real. So was the money I had to pay to ship back a product that was bought under false advertisement. I don't care about the manufacturer, I care how it performs. So does everyone else, otherwise they wouldn't spend the money on laptops of this caliber.
"me people in your opinion how do fill in orders if one of your suppliers cannot meet the demands?"
I know, by swapping products with one that is worse, doing some software changes to try to hide that (see the thread about inability to identify monitor, and the "forced" turning off the content-while-dragging option)! That's the American way, right?
Nobody cares about "official figures" of how many are units shipped, how many people use the internet, how much the moon weighs, how long the river Nile is, which part of the Red Sea Moses parted to find out they have been hosed.
Plain and simple. A statistically significant amount of people are all dissatisfied with a very particular product. Because this product was swapped for one that was advertised, they spent time and money on something that upon getting it, found out is frankly un-usable in a lot of cases.
You can rationalize it all you want, come up with all sorts of magical statistics and mythical descriptions and apologetics about being an investor, but it matters nill to this situation. The facts are a very considerable amount of people noticed a very odd set of peculiarities about a certain product, and demand an explanation why their time and money was wasted. In a real world, this is what happens when customers get hosed, they complain, and have every right to do so.
I'm not trying to start arguments, but I didn't like the dismissiveness of the entire situation that you proposed. "Selling it on ebay" is not a good option for somebody that now figured out "hey wait a minute, for that large price that I paid, I should have recieved what I paid for, this isn't fair, what gives?!" Sure, you can say "tough luck for not going to the forums within the first 30 days and figuring it all out, you poor sap, that's supply and demand in action. if you don't like it, sell it on ebay for half price and pny up another $1000 to get what you should have gotten in the first place." but that wouldn't quite help the situation, now would it?
I hope you can see why people are dis-satisfied. And yes, the screen actually IS *that* bad in case you haven't seen it.
No offense Maverick . . . but who are you to dictate what gets posted on these boards or tell people not to post? To imply that, as a percentage, those that are experiencing this problem do not actually represent a "real problem" (again, as defined by
you) is asinine. This is a
community board, i.e. the community (people including and other than you) dictates the topic of discussion. Simply because you aren't having this issue doesn't make it any less valid. Having frequented many message boards, it is common for people to bump threads to keep it near the top so that it
does get noticed. Ask yourself how many times you browse anywhere past the second page of posts . . . I rarely even go past the first.
Returning a unit to Dell may make a statement to Dell, but it does nothing to help the community of present and future Dell owners. If I purchase an item from Dell that does NOT meet the advertised specs, has been brought to the company's attention, and has received no attention/resolution . . . you are darn straight I'm going to talk about it. Honestly, if I had seen these forums before I ordered, I probably wouldn't have. As it is, I am waiting for my i8600 to arrive and rather than looking forward to it, I am concerned about what I may or may not recieve. Just because a large percentage of people don't notice that they have been shipped a sub-spec component, doesn't mean that those that do notice have to accept it.
If you don't have anything to contribute and you don't have any personal interest vested in this problem, the answer is simple . . . don't click on the thread. Again, not meaning to flame or offend, it just seems obvious that if you don't like the topic, don't read it.
Message Edited by DreadPirateRoberts on 01-04-2004 11:46 PM
The WSXGA posts are a flaming sign post... A warning, a beakon in the dark.
The results are already apparent. Potential customers are getting informed. Look at the various "I'm scared to buy a Dell" threads. Here, and on other forums. Even over on talknotebooks.com, the word of this 'demonstration' is getting out... Soon it will be on Hardware froums everywhere.
So Mav, find a nice warm spot to curl up by Micky Dell's desk... The WSXGA threads aren't going anywhere, whether our units are returned or not.
I want to thank everyone who has posted, even those with complaints. That is one of the uses of the Forum, and we are listening.
I want to apologize if anyone felt abandoned since Christmas. I have duties other than moderating this forum, and those duties kept me busy, so that I had no time to post.
As I have stated elsewhere, more than once, the specifications on Hitachi's website are not the specifications for the LCDs they supply to us. The only specifications that I have received are Viewing Angles, 85/85 and 55/55, and the Contrast Ratio, 310-430:1. I am trying to get the response time.
If you are dissatisfied with your system for any reason, then it is your perogative to return it within 30 days. If you feel that your LCD does not meet Dell's specifications, or that it is faulty in anyway, please contact Technical Support.
I am following this issue, but I have nothing new to report at this time.
Please let me state plainly, that for Dell, the issue is not about comparisons between LCDs from different manufacturers, but about whether or not the LCD meets Dell's specifications. Dell publishes system specifications, and when you purchase a system, it should meet or exceed those specifications. If one system meets the specifications, and another exceeds the specifications, it does not mean that there is a problem with the first system. If it does not meet the specifications, then you should contact Dell.
I am not trying to lessen the impact of this problem, and I am trying to get this issue reviewed. Anyone who is experiencing a problem should find the appropriate thread (this is not it) and post a description of their problem, and their Service Tag number, or make sure that their Service Tag number is in their profile, where only Moderators can see it. I am trying to track the issue, but I need the Service Tag numbers for users with this problem.
Lastly, this thread has drifted towards the flames at times, and I am asking you to avoid that. I really hate having to come in and delete posts and issue warnings (it's a lot of work). Please keep things polite.
Dell Rollie: I think it would be good if you post the specifications and type of the Hitachi screen that Dell supplies in their laptops. If the specifications meets Dell's specifications then there is no problem with the specs of the Hitachi screen and the cause of the problems must be something else. Maybe there is a driver issue or something else.
So, please post the type and the specifications of the Hitachi screen Dell supplies.
I understand the point of view Dell doesn't switch the two displays if both meet specifications. I agree.
The displays I have tested (both Dell laptops) to get some comparison, were both better with dragging windows and scrolling (they both were much older, too). I think the most simple thing to do would be for Dell to get a Dell 8600 with the hitachi screen (what seems 2 be the config where ppl experience problems with) and a dell 8600 with a Samsung (?) tft. First just look for yourself how dragging and scrolling causes to blur 2 much(with options on or off in internetexplorer; it doesn't mather). I am convinced that you will find that it cannot be a screen that is to be expected if you see the specifications. 35 ms should be good enough to see only very little ghosting.
It seems to be a fast way for Dell to test it. After that you can give us some feedback of what Dell's findings are. I am sure that will be appreciated greatly by most of us.
Btw I have sent an email to Customer Care already. I don't think I will get an answer soon (I sent another one about 8 days ago concerning a missing laptopcase which isn't answered yet...) so I hope at least at the forum an answer will be formed to whereas the problem is located and how it should be resolved.
Message Edited by brulkikker on 01-05-2004 10:00 PM
brendang
1 Rookie
•
16 Posts
0
January 4th, 2004 11:00
Fellow hosies,
Don't sweat Mav and Csmith... We all know the type. They're in every office. We all grew up with them.
I will agree with one point. Baseless whining is annoying. On the other hand, if I had seen this firestorm of threads before I bought a Dell WSXGA, it would have saved me a lot of grief. So in that way, it's purpose is to warn off other folk to whom quaility might matter.
The true value in these irate posts is not baseless and certainly not whining. But don't try and convince a coupla fellas that seem to get a genuine kick out of shouting 'Caveat emptor' at some understandably tick'd off customers. Like I said, we all know the type...
B-
CSmith06
2 Intern
•
956 Posts
0
January 4th, 2004 13:00
Dang, no I missed the whole post being HTML-ized.
Maverick2o2
2 Intern
•
155 Posts
0
January 4th, 2004 14:00
ive given up talking to violaten hes become unreasonable.
Like i said befoe 50K+ Units sent every month give or take a hundred units Samsung Screens is used for every size with WSXGA screens being the highest in demand then WUXGA tell me people in your opinion how do fill in orders if one of your suppliers cannot meet the demands? Solutions would be to delay the shipping of your unit by telling you the screen is on back order until one is alotted towards your particular model which can be anywhere from 1 day to 40 days sort of like the VooDoo PC's method of it. Another would be disable the option in the build order until theres some available. OR! this could be the answer... GET ANOTHER manufacturer to provide screens to alleviate the demands? yeah im pretty sure i went down this path.
Regarding people who are complaining now? violaten said it flat out "were going to give the messege by returning the system and not buying from dell again" ::applauds:: but what about those of you who had it for over 30 days? it seems to me the only ones complaining really are the ones who recently got there systems with the Mr9600 which was well pointed out hasnt been around long enough to void your returns. Those of you who had your systems longer? try selling it off to ebay and get an entirely new system.
The person who made a direct comparrison against a desktop lcd should not speak about technical comparrisons. To compare a laptop LCD and a desktop LCD is incredibly unfair. The fastest LCD in desktops achieve 12 MS in response time and the highest in colors is 16.7 million with MUCH higher contrast ratios compared to the laptops topping at 20ms for laptops and 264K colors.
I can understand the need to compalin but to actually do it and for the most annoying part to see related threads in forum is annoying your actually putting priority for those threads over the ones where people ahve REAL problems (blank display, funny noise hardrive makes, warrenty coverage" stuff like that. If you were one with a real problem wouldnt you want direct attention instead of the people who are putting up these 200+ reslponse threads?
All in all the " P ro b l e m " is not widespread for those who actually can tell the difference between the two manufacturers id say forum wise its limited to at most 300 people lets compare that to how many thats shipped this month? i'll be back with exact figures at the official end of QTR4 of 20003.
Loose_Keys
3 Posts
0
January 4th, 2004 15:00
The minute Dell shipped customer support to India anyone buying their systems should have known the customer was NO LONGER the priority and that customer service/satisfaction were less important to Dell than 10 years ago.
There is a fine distinction here. Did Dell substitute a product with lower specifications for a product with higher specs that was out of stock? Did they advertise the higher spec and then substitute a lower one? Some say yes that is what they did, if they did it's shameful. If not, Dell has the right to include whatever monitor they choose just like you have the right to return it.
Dell has always been overprice and overrated IMO. The only laptop I have owned recently that gave me not a whisper of trouble was a 5105-s608 from Toshiba. No worn keys, no bad displays etc. But, I took a shot at the new HP with the 17 WSXGA recently. It went back to the store....it was the biggest piece of refuse I ever owned. I returned it mainly for the touchpad which is darn near impossible to use. Upon returning it I found I was one of many to do the same thing for the same reason. HP knows the touchpad is subpar but still ships the unit. You can barely function by using the touchpad it is so bad. It also had the terrible Hitachi screen.
Looking at options from other vendors including Dell, I decided to wait until better screens are available for laptops. I loved the XBrite Sony 16.1 uxga...but it's only available with somewhat dated video technology. In the meantime I built a nice desktop for about $1200 and added a Hitachi 17" desktop LCD (fast refresh and very very bright).
violaten
1 Rookie
•
91 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 03:00
Maverick, if Dell was shipping LCDs that meet the specs they promise, your point would be valid. But just because the screen is "better than other laptops with 17" LCDs", doesn't mean it's acceptable. I agree we shouldn't compare the Hitatchi to desktop LCDs, but we should compare it to the Samsung as that does meet the spec.
And no, it's not good business practice to promise something and give less. What about if we got a slower processor than promised? We're getting a slower screen than promised. To me a slower monitor is worse than having a slower processor. Like I said I notice it every second, I wouldn't with a slower processor.
violaten
1 Rookie
•
91 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 03:00
Sorry about that, it must have got fixed :(.
You see the top part where I quote you right? Just replace the ( with < and ) with >. html goodies is a good reference.
BlkAngel
8 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 05:00
Sure, no problem. As soon as I get back my money for returning it. Which I probably won't, seeing as it's not their "policy."
Since I end up with a deficit and a defective product, I, and everyone else that shares this problem, has the right to discuss, analyze, muse, rant, bicker, query, and complain about the situation to prevent others from becoming hosed (I'm sorry if this is a problem for your "investment" or something, maybe you should have picked a company that doesn't pull tricks like this. Live and learn, I guess. Don't blame us.) and losing time and money.
Maverick2o2
2 Intern
•
155 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 05:00
Then why complain? your returning it clearly i see this in your sig this post should be over.
Anyone else who feels similar to violaten ask yourself if your returning the system and if you are do NOT POST i think returning the system is clue enough for dell theres no need to keep bumping this post to the top
as your point keeps aiming for is the validity of the specs for the hitachi screens which no one can confirm simple as that no more posts unless theres some real information about this ok people?
BlkAngel
8 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 05:00
Yeah Maverick, the issue is not that there was a replacement, but that it was replaced with something that people everywhere noticed as considerably inferior. You have to understand that before talking about how this thread is of lower priority than other "real" ones. This is pretty real. So was the money I had to pay to ship back a product that was bought under false advertisement. I don't care about the manufacturer, I care how it performs. So does everyone else, otherwise they wouldn't spend the money on laptops of this caliber.
"me people in your opinion how do fill in orders if one of your suppliers cannot meet the demands?"
I know, by swapping products with one that is worse, doing some software changes to try to hide that (see the thread about inability to identify monitor, and the "forced" turning off the content-while-dragging option)! That's the American way, right?
Nobody cares about "official figures" of how many are units shipped, how many people use the internet, how much the moon weighs, how long the river Nile is, which part of the Red Sea Moses parted to find out they have been hosed.
Plain and simple. A statistically significant amount of people are all dissatisfied with a very particular product. Because this product was swapped for one that was advertised, they spent time and money on something that upon getting it, found out is frankly un-usable in a lot of cases.
You can rationalize it all you want, come up with all sorts of magical statistics and mythical descriptions and apologetics about being an investor, but it matters nill to this situation. The facts are a very considerable amount of people noticed a very odd set of peculiarities about a certain product, and demand an explanation why their time and money was wasted. In a real world, this is what happens when customers get hosed, they complain, and have every right to do so.
I'm not trying to start arguments, but I didn't like the dismissiveness of the entire situation that you proposed. "Selling it on ebay" is not a good option for somebody that now figured out "hey wait a minute, for that large price that I paid, I should have recieved what I paid for, this isn't fair, what gives?!" Sure, you can say "tough luck for not going to the forums within the first 30 days and figuring it all out, you poor sap, that's supply and demand in action. if you don't like it, sell it on ebay for half price and pny up another $1000 to get what you should have gotten in the first place." but that wouldn't quite help the situation, now would it?
I hope you can see why people are dis-satisfied. And yes, the screen actually IS *that* bad in case you haven't seen it.
DreadPirateRobe
9 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 05:00
No offense Maverick . . . but who are you to dictate what gets posted on these boards or tell people not to post? To imply that, as a percentage, those that are experiencing this problem do not actually represent a "real problem" (again, as defined by you) is asinine. This is a community board, i.e. the community (people including and other than you) dictates the topic of discussion. Simply because you aren't having this issue doesn't make it any less valid. Having frequented many message boards, it is common for people to bump threads to keep it near the top so that it does get noticed. Ask yourself how many times you browse anywhere past the second page of posts . . . I rarely even go past the first.
Returning a unit to Dell may make a statement to Dell, but it does nothing to help the community of present and future Dell owners. If I purchase an item from Dell that does NOT meet the advertised specs, has been brought to the company's attention, and has received no attention/resolution . . . you are darn straight I'm going to talk about it. Honestly, if I had seen these forums before I ordered, I probably wouldn't have. As it is, I am waiting for my i8600 to arrive and rather than looking forward to it, I am concerned about what I may or may not recieve. Just because a large percentage of people don't notice that they have been shipped a sub-spec component, doesn't mean that those that do notice have to accept it.
If you don't have anything to contribute and you don't have any personal interest vested in this problem, the answer is simple . . . don't click on the thread. Again, not meaning to flame or offend, it just seems obvious that if you don't like the topic, don't read it.
Message Edited by DreadPirateRoberts on 01-04-2004 11:46 PM
brendang
1 Rookie
•
16 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 12:00
The WSXGA posts are a flaming sign post... A warning, a beakon in the dark.
The results are already apparent. Potential customers are getting informed. Look at the various "I'm scared to buy a Dell" threads. Here, and on other forums. Even over on talknotebooks.com, the word of this 'demonstration' is getting out... Soon it will be on Hardware froums everywhere.
So Mav, find a nice warm spot to curl up by Micky Dell's desk... The WSXGA threads aren't going anywhere, whether our units are returned or not.
Community outreach, baby.
Message Edited by brendang on 01-05-2004 09:53 AM
Networqs
78 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 13:00
Rollie_R
2 Intern
•
2.2K Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 18:00
All,
I want to thank everyone who has posted, even those with complaints. That is one of the uses of the Forum, and we are listening.
I want to apologize if anyone felt abandoned since Christmas. I have duties other than moderating this forum, and those duties kept me busy, so that I had no time to post.
As I have stated elsewhere, more than once, the specifications on Hitachi's website are not the specifications for the LCDs they supply to us. The only specifications that I have received are Viewing Angles, 85/85 and 55/55, and the Contrast Ratio, 310-430:1. I am trying to get the response time.
If you are dissatisfied with your system for any reason, then it is your perogative to return it within 30 days. If you feel that your LCD does not meet Dell's specifications, or that it is faulty in anyway, please contact Technical Support.
I am following this issue, but I have nothing new to report at this time.
Please let me state plainly, that for Dell, the issue is not about comparisons between LCDs from different manufacturers, but about whether or not the LCD meets Dell's specifications. Dell publishes system specifications, and when you purchase a system, it should meet or exceed those specifications. If one system meets the specifications, and another exceeds the specifications, it does not mean that there is a problem with the first system. If it does not meet the specifications, then you should contact Dell.
I am not trying to lessen the impact of this problem, and I am trying to get this issue reviewed. Anyone who is experiencing a problem should find the appropriate thread (this is not it) and post a description of their problem, and their Service Tag number, or make sure that their Service Tag number is in their profile, where only Moderators can see it. I am trying to track the issue, but I need the Service Tag numbers for users with this problem.
Lastly, this thread has drifted towards the flames at times, and I am asking you to avoid that. I really hate having to come in and delete posts and issue warnings (it's a lot of work). Please keep things polite.
Wampie
1 Message
0
January 5th, 2004 18:00
Dell Rollie: I think it would be good if you post the specifications and type of the Hitachi screen that Dell supplies in their laptops. If the specifications meets Dell's specifications then there is no problem with the specs of the Hitachi screen and the cause of the problems must be something else. Maybe there is a driver issue or something else.
So, please post the type and the specifications of the Hitachi screen Dell supplies.
Thnx in advance.
brulkikker
17 Posts
0
January 5th, 2004 18:00
Rollie,
I understand the point of view Dell doesn't switch the two displays if both meet specifications. I agree.
The displays I have tested (both Dell laptops) to get some comparison, were both better with dragging windows and scrolling (they both were much older, too). I think the most simple thing to do would be for Dell to get a Dell 8600 with the hitachi screen (what seems 2 be the config where ppl experience problems with) and a dell 8600 with a Samsung (?) tft. First just look for yourself how dragging and scrolling causes to blur 2 much(with options on or off in internetexplorer; it doesn't mather). I am convinced that you will find that it cannot be a screen that is to be expected if you see the specifications. 35 ms should be good enough to see only very little ghosting.
It seems to be a fast way for Dell to test it. After that you can give us some feedback of what Dell's findings are. I am sure that will be appreciated greatly by most of us.
Btw I have sent an email to Customer Care already. I don't think I will get an answer soon (I sent another one about 8 days ago concerning a missing laptopcase which isn't answered yet...) so I hope at least at the forum an answer will be formed to whereas the problem is located and how it should be resolved.
Message Edited by brulkikker on 01-05-2004 10:00 PM