aye, where do i start here...i beg to differ unfortunatley on so many of your ideas guys. but dont get me wrong, im still highly *for* this idea, i just have a lot of doubts. the first are unfortunatley aimed at your leader, noefex.
ok, you say cooling isnt a problem on the gpu, right? i beg to differ, greatly. what makes you think that if the i8600 has active cooling with their m11, we won't? ATI says that they run cooler then nVidia cards, this is true. but that does NOT mean that they dont run hot, it simply means that they run cooler that the really hot nVidia cards. How exactly to you expect a chip thats nearly doubleing its transistor amount (yes, because you're jumping from 64mb or onboard ram to 128) to not run all that much hotter? the thing will run a lot hotter then it already does. People are having problems with overheating on the i5150 because of a design flaw in the cooling of the GPU, not the proc, which then causes artifacts and other things on the screen, and some (including myself) get spontaneous shutdowns for no reason at all except heat. now rething what you said before. does it still make a whole lot of sense to stick in a card that will run even hotter?
next, you commented about installing our own heat pipes. im curious, where exactly do you expect to buy in the configuration we need? you will not be able to run to your local computer store and buy them. furthermore, do you even know how a heatpipe works? do you know that the reason it's more effective that a passive copper heat sink is because inside the *pipe* is a fluid that vaporizes, uses convection currents to the flow to the other side, cools, and the flows back down (again by convection) to the heat plate? i bet you sure didn't know that, and how much that complicates installing it on your own...that is assuming you could mod your entire inner case to fit such a thing and then mod the proccessor cooling fan to accept another source. yes, it is true that copper is the best conductor around, but next time before making a statement like "install your own cooling", check your facts.
as to the whole progress part, good, im glad someone is actually doing more then just talking about this. i wish you the best of luck though in getting this past dell, because unfortunatley they'd rather you bought their $3000 laptop instead of allowing you to pay a few hundred for a new video card. i still think we may have problems with form factor due to the email you got from compal, but hey, who knows.
and u know what tim? you are right. i was aiming for the 9700...which is somehow cooler than the 9600 (good design). notice about hwat i said about installing ur own (i wont go into the chemistry)....didnt i say that? i know how copper heatsinks work. i was about ot buy one that fits under ur notebook neways and works like that just i dont know if its as effective as one of those fan bases that has 2-4 fans (tell me...which is better?)
but the 9600pro FORM FITS the case. problem is the mobo...iwll it fit into there??? it will of course fit the same mini agp slot but it might be at a weird angle. well i want someone to try this out. i know we will be able to get the cards.
hhehee i feel like the people at the beginning of the 64meg for 5100 must have, lo an behold they found sucess, well even if it is a major pain in the (rymes with pass) lets try like (rymes with cell) to get this to work first things first, lets get ahold of one of these for testing, we already have had someone volunteer to be a guinea pig so now we need to find how to order one of these for testing....
i already know where to get the card. u have to talk to that andrew chen dude and dell legal divison to clear everything first off. then get it from andrew chen.
if someone can get me an email and/or telephone number I will contact Dell and Compal. I am sick and tired of reading negative complaints and the amount of curious posts on Video upgrades still rises everyday. Even if it costs a few bucks it will be worth it in the future. I will test this card out if I can get one- as far as the heat issue- If the card is WAY to hot in standard form we can clock it down a bit- just like dell did on all of the video cards each 5150 runs. I have a 9000 64mb OVERCLOCKED about 10% on both memory and clock speed and have no problems. I could push it further but I do not want to risk anything. The card came about 20% underclocked so I did see a 30% gross improvement in speeds with no probs. Another factor on heat is that technology has progressed to allow higher clock speeds at lower temps. Look at overclocker forums that have 2.2 P4's overclocked to 3.0 with water cooling or HUGE fans (desktops) yet the new 3.8P4's are the same size and use a standard HSF assembly- TECHNOLOGY. The clock speeds can be knoked down a bit on a 9600 and the improvement would still be tremendous from even my overclocked 9000. It may even run cooler too. Argue as you will but I have overclocked on desktops and the same rules apply when heat is an issue. The only negative to our heat issue is that we cannot improve our cooling like we could on a desktop. To those wanting to use cooling pads and such as solutions- the difference would not be that great and would most likely just be another headache. A 9600 mobile can run in a 5150 just as a 9000- it is just a matter of finding one that fits the chassis and MB. The bios will not be an issue.
I have had no thermal issues whatsoever with my 5200 running at stock Dell Driver speeds. I am not sure what cards people have encountered these problems with, and was unable to find an estimate of the Mobility 9000 power usage. Being that it appears as though the 5150 was designed for a 4-5 watt card and people are experiencing problems as it is, swapping to a 10-11 watt card will absolutely necessitate implementing an active cooling system. Rather than dealing with heat pipes and the like, I think it may be more straightforward to install a small fan (www.sunon.com) in the vent area between the USB ports and the S-Video port, and possibly fabricate bafflles to draw air through the keyboard (its base is somewhat perforated), over the GPU card, and out the back of the system. Now the only problem is finding a suitable place to tap for fan power.
The only problem I see is a shorter battery life when using graphic intense programs. The bios will recognize the card and the voltages/wattages are dealt with without us even knowing. It is a major wattage jump but we should still be OK. Relate it to a desktop where each card has a different wattage req. an old 32mb may use 4 but the new 9800XT 256 uses TONS more from what I understand and the bios will automatically take care of the needed power. As for cooling- if the card fits I dont think we will need more but it is a possibility.
The problem is that rated wattage is directly related to thermal dissipation of the chipset...thus more wattage=more heat. After doing a bit more research though, ATI states that power requirements have remained steady while performance has increased through several generations. It may very well be the case that the Mobility 9000 is a 10+ watt chip. If this is the case, the 9600 indeed may not need supplemental cooling.
i emailed him and he responded very quickly , it didnt look optimistic but i wrote a good arguement back , i am at school right now and my argument is on my desktop at home ile have to wait till i can get my brother onlien to send it to me then ile post it on here.
could someone drop the email address to whoever we need to contact to beg and plead with regard to permission over in legal? Earlier someone said it had to be snail mail, but now a few peeps have mentioned emails, did i get my wires crossed?
icebergtamer
19 Posts
0
February 23rd, 2004 23:00
aye, where do i start here...i beg to differ unfortunatley on so many of your ideas guys. but dont get me wrong, im still highly *for* this idea, i just have a lot of doubts. the first are unfortunatley aimed at your leader, noefex.
ok, you say cooling isnt a problem on the gpu, right? i beg to differ, greatly. what makes you think that if the i8600 has active cooling with their m11, we won't? ATI says that they run cooler then nVidia cards, this is true. but that does NOT mean that they dont run hot, it simply means that they run cooler that the really hot nVidia cards. How exactly to you expect a chip thats nearly doubleing its transistor amount (yes, because you're jumping from 64mb or onboard ram to 128) to not run all that much hotter? the thing will run a lot hotter then it already does. People are having problems with overheating on the i5150 because of a design flaw in the cooling of the GPU, not the proc, which then causes artifacts and other things on the screen, and some (including myself) get spontaneous shutdowns for no reason at all except heat. now rething what you said before. does it still make a whole lot of sense to stick in a card that will run even hotter?
next, you commented about installing our own heat pipes. im curious, where exactly do you expect to buy in the configuration we need? you will not be able to run to your local computer store and buy them. furthermore, do you even know how a heatpipe works? do you know that the reason it's more effective that a passive copper heat sink is because inside the *pipe* is a fluid that vaporizes, uses convection currents to the flow to the other side, cools, and the flows back down (again by convection) to the heat plate? i bet you sure didn't know that, and how much that complicates installing it on your own...that is assuming you could mod your entire inner case to fit such a thing and then mod the proccessor cooling fan to accept another source. yes, it is true that copper is the best conductor around, but next time before making a statement like "install your own cooling", check your facts.
as to the whole progress part, good, im glad someone is actually doing more then just talking about this. i wish you the best of luck though in getting this past dell, because unfortunatley they'd rather you bought their $3000 laptop instead of allowing you to pay a few hundred for a new video card. i still think we may have problems with form factor due to the email you got from compal, but hey, who knows.
ok, thats enough of my rant
mikers85
243 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 00:00
noefex
25 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 00:00
and u know what tim? you are right. i was aiming for the 9700...which is somehow cooler than the 9600 (good design). notice about hwat i said about installing ur own (i wont go into the chemistry)....didnt i say that? i know how copper heatsinks work. i was about ot buy one that fits under ur notebook neways and works like that just i dont know if its as effective as one of those fan bases that has 2-4 fans (tell me...which is better?)
but the 9600pro FORM FITS the case. problem is the mobo...iwll it fit into there??? it will of course fit the same mini agp slot but it might be at a weird angle. well i want someone to try this out. i know we will be able to get the cards.
mikers85
243 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 00:00
hhehee i feel like the people at the beginning of the 64meg for 5100 must have, lo an behold they found sucess, well even if it is a major pain in the (rymes with pass) lets try like (rymes with cell) to get this to work first things first, lets get ahold of one of these for testing, we already have had someone volunteer to be a guinea pig so now we need to find how to order one of these for testing....
lets be speedy, technology evolves so fast!
noefex
25 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 01:00
noefex
25 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 01:00
surj
24 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 02:00
Higney85
146 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 03:00
jk79
412 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 05:00
Did a bit of research on the GPU's in question. GeForce FX Go5200 seems to draw about 4 watts max (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,,926357,00.asp). The Mobilty 9700, 10.5 to 11w max. The article states that the mobility 9700 operates in the same "power envelope" as the mobility 9600, so we can infer that the 9600 will draw a similar amount of power. (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1505751,00.asp)
I have had no thermal issues whatsoever with my 5200 running at stock Dell Driver speeds. I am not sure what cards people have encountered these problems with, and was unable to find an estimate of the Mobility 9000 power usage. Being that it appears as though the 5150 was designed for a 4-5 watt card and people are experiencing problems as it is, swapping to a 10-11 watt card will absolutely necessitate implementing an active cooling system. Rather than dealing with heat pipes and the like, I think it may be more straightforward to install a small fan (www.sunon.com) in the vent area between the USB ports and the S-Video port, and possibly fabricate bafflles to draw air through the keyboard (its base is somewhat perforated), over the GPU card, and out the back of the system. Now the only problem is finding a suitable place to tap for fan power.
Hope this information helps out.
JK
Edit: Check out this interview with the PR manager for mobile ATI chipsets, there are some interesting things said that may apply to our cause: http://www.driverheaven.net/display.php?page=chris_interview
Message Edited by jk79 on 02-24-2004 03:16 AM
Higney85
146 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 12:00
jk79
412 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 14:00
The problem is that rated wattage is directly related to thermal dissipation of the chipset...thus more wattage=more heat. After doing a bit more research though, ATI states that power requirements have remained steady while performance has increased through several generations. It may very well be the case that the Mobility 9000 is a 10+ watt chip. If this is the case, the 9600 indeed may not need supplemental cooling.
JK
mikers85
243 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 15:00
Higney85
146 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 15:00
it was a point worth bringing up but I dont think it will be a problem for what we are wanting to do.
*update- intersting link*
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=mobility9600&page=2&MSCSProfile=95385A1F52DEA1A229D5B37542054464C5A9A409A2E35586
E52183E44676A085738264621F65536599D10F9B02B698A8372BA1377FAF6F1CBA0B704932416DD5831848838B6C45097E9E0857952560EB7A455
85363E6F8413A5FC508386724A18790B14411468FD5859C5532C073A8794B89907010A604ECF91E52A9D89649F81DDDF75A1944B03F
*its a really long link so copy paste all of it, do not just click the link*
Message Edited by Higney85 on 02-24-2004 01:40 PM
Message Edited by Higney85 on 02-24-2004 01:42 PM
surj
24 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 18:00
could someone drop the email address to whoever we need to contact to beg and plead with regard to permission over in legal? Earlier someone said it had to be snail mail, but now a few peeps have mentioned emails, did i get my wires crossed?
thanks
mikers85
243 Posts
0
February 24th, 2004 20:00