The combined power on the 3.3v/5v rails has been an issue especially with video cards that use 225 to 300W of Aux power. This is not the card with a single 6 pin aux power but rather the cards that use 2 X 6 pin or worse a six pin and an 8 pin or 2 8pin connectors.
While it may work initially booting when stressed the PSU causes reboot or hang due to insufficient power.
So they also have a NEW connector 12 PIN Aux power.
A new 12-pin PCIe power connector is used with the NVIDIA Ampere generation graphics cards has been confirmed. The new connector takes a 2x8-pin power direct from the PSU and shrinks it down into a single 12-pin connector. That means mere mortal power supplies with only 2 x 6 pin or 2 x 8 pin need not apply. So telling people standard 550W units are fine is very bad advice IMHO.
Looking the same is NOT the same
More than one rail used this is what the slot provides
Its not easy but you can FORCE the WRONG connector onto motherboard or GPU with firey results and EVERYTHING Dies because you are impatient. Note the keying on pin #4. The EPS-12V connector is not 6 +2 but it is 4 + 4 if the connector separates 4+4 its NOT FOR THE GPU.
If the connector separates 6 +2 its NOT FOR THE MOTHERBOARD.
"Too much emphasis on the 3.3V and 5V rail on some of these posts."
I disagree. What is your proof that 140 to 225W is NOT needed for the combined 3.3v/5v rails with 30 Amps 3.3v and 32 Amps 5v ?
USB3 ports can use 5v from 5W to 100W per port depending on the type.
USB-C ports must be able to carry a minimum of 3 A current ( 60 W) but can also carry high-power 5 A current ( 100 W).
Combined power is an issue if you use too much. You arent allowed to use MAX POWER on ALL RAILS at the same time.
All rails matter not just a single spec of WATTS and a single rail of 12v.
I'm not pulling these out of thin Air.
You completely ignore the 375W video power consumption as well as the 12 PIN Aux PCI connector that is not trivial.
I do not agree that you can make assurances that a specific power supply is fine with a card that is not even released yet. NVIDIA pushed the rollout back from OCT 15. Unless the power supply comes with DUAL 8 pin aux power aka 375W dedicated to PCI-E I would say 850W is barely ok.
I do not see ANY vendors that say they have a PSU ready for 30 series cards.
Graphics Card Maximum Power Consumption in Watts
PCI Express x16
6-Pin Connector
8-Pin Connector
Total Power
75W
–
–
75W
75W
1 x 75W
–
150W
75W
–
1 x 150W
225W
75W
2 x 75W
–
225W
75W
1 x 75W
1 x 150W
300W
75W
–
2 x 150W
375W
This is also why the sonnet thunderbolt 3 box has 650W dedicated to JUST the Video card.
The GPU uses 75W from the slot and 300W from the 2 8 pin connectors or the new 12 pin Aux connector. Thats not the only load on 3.3v or 5v or 12v however. Its also why people even with 1080 TI had issues with 900W and even 1000W power supplies. Its also why the Area 51 has 1500W option to support 3 cards at 300W each.
I'm not Dell
@DELL-Chris M may have insight as to DELL OEM vs Retail and the Stock Dell power supply vs seasonic with insufficient 3.3v 5v combined power.
12v 48 AMPS = 576W
5VSB 4 AMPS = 20W
5v 20 AMPS =100W USB ports
CPU 3.3v 30 amps =100w
PCi-E slot 3.3V 4 SLOTS 12 amps =40w
3.3V 4 AMPS RAM 4 SLOTS =35w
5V 3 amps hard drive =15w
886w total
We are done.
You will have to show your work with amp probe and scope.
My recommendations are based on sound engineering principles.
hardware capable of accurately measuring your PC’s overall power consumption is not inexpensive. However, if you need to make sure that you have data that is time-stamped and is measured to within a 0.5% margin of error
1080TI Thermal and Power Specs: 91 Maximum GPU Temperature (in C) 250 W Graphics Card Power (W) 600 W Recommended System Power (W) One 6-pin (75W) , One 8-pin (150W) Supplementary Power Connectors
Again I'm not pulling these numbers from thin air. Flammability UL94V-1 minimum Material certification or certificate of compliance required with each lot to satisfy the Underwriters Laboratories SAFETY requirements. This is where 12V 18 amps MAX per aux connector comes from. The UL 94V the flammability rating that given to materials that tolerated vertical burning. CSA is canada and VDE is the european equivalent of UL. EU adds and additional safety rating for the environment about lead called ROHS.
EVGA G5 Gold 850 would be good. You will also need a right angle SATA adapter if you have a 3.5" HDD, otherwise the case might not fully close (The straight cables stick out too much).
If you have an optical DVD drive, you'll need a slimline SATA adapter cable. Other than that, no proprietary cables to the MOBO from the PSU.
Bronze vs Gold is just the efficiency of the PSU. Gold is more efficient than Bronze. In other words, how much AC power it needs to draw to power the PC, and how much heat is being generated in the exchange. The more efficient the less power it uses, and less heat it generates.
Also, the proprietary cables are the power button and the LED/RGB cables. Those are separate from the PSU. The PSU is fully upgradeable, standard ATX width and height, just be mindful of the length especially with sleeved cables.
The supplied 8 PIN power cables with most retail PSUs, EVGA and Seasonic included, will be fine for the SFF Aurora case. The OEM cables are cut to size for the Aurora to save space and money. Retailer PSU manufacturers have to cater to a larger audience, usually much larger PC cases too.
1) Slimline SATA cable for DVD Drive. I think this is one, "CRJ SATA Power 15-Pin Male to SATA 6-Pin Slimline Sleeved Power Adapter Cable".
2) Right Angle SATA Adapter for HDD. Maybe this "OCR SATA 22P Male to Female 90 Degree 7+15P F/M for Hard Disk Interface".
3) Any good 850W PS ATX form factor
One more question. From the looks of it, the 3070 has it's power connection in the middle of the card, whereas the 1070 is towards the rear of the card and the current PS cable just makes it. Should I assume the current market for these PS units are supplied with cable that are at least long enough to reach the middle of the 3070?
Too much emphasis on the 3.3V and 5V rail on some of these posts.
What I’ve been told that as power distribution chip architecture changed the chips started taking their power of the single 12v rail and less emphasis is placed on the 3.3v/5v rails.
The CPU and GPU tend to be the biggest consumers of power, when fully loaded, so a modern PSU has to provide most of its power at 12 volts. That 12v rail is what you should be looking at when looking at modern PSU capacity.
A modern CPU has its own converter on the motherboard which converts 12 volts to whatever voltage the CPU needs. Modern GPU's also have their own converters on the card which convert 12 volts into it's voltage requirement.
Back in the old days you the most of the chips onboard were directly connected to 3.3 or 5 volts and that's where those older PSU's provided most of its wattage. However, in new computers the PSU provides most of its power on the 12 volt rail and then various DC/DC converters throughout the computer convert it to whatever voltage is needed by that particular set of chips.
Bottom line: I wouldn’t worry about the 3.3v / 5v specs unless you are using the PSU in a much older machine where likely it wouldn't work anyway because it requires a different ATX spec.
+ 12V : processor, graphics card, fans and some PCIe expansion cards. It is also the main voltage of the motherboard, although it must go through its own VRMs to regulate it. In general, it is the rail that serves the hardware components with the highest consumption.
+ 5V: mechanical hard drives, optical drives, some PCIe and USB expansion cards. All USB ports on a PC run at 5V, and that includes the peripherals that connect to them.
+ 3.3V: RAM memory and SSDs in M.2 format. Furthermore, all PCIe sockets are also capable of providing + 3.3V.
From review of the Corsair AX1600i Titanium PSU, their flagship PSU where the combined 3.3v/5v rail is 180w…eliciting a comment of overkill.
I wouldn’t worry about the Seasonic PSU, here is a good take on it……the voltage stability and reilability is known to be stellar. I have had no issues with that PSU either per @Anonymous
So even with the RTX 3080, the total draw from the most power hungry components is 454W
So that leaves a “ weak” Seasonic 850W PSU with 400W of overhead which should be fine regardless of what is pulling power off the 3.3V and 5V rails.
I always enjoy reading your posts and do not disagree with your comments about total power draw, but in this particular thread about a R5 upgrade to the RTX 3070, the Seasonic should be fine. As well as the EVGA 850BQ.
When you start talking about power consumption of the new high end GPU's in the same machine with a newer 10900K CPU overclocked and pulling 300W+, then total power draw is important and a more robust PSU is indicated. But in this situation, the 850w should be fine.
I cannot agree with that because you CANNOT DRAW 100 percent max from each rail based on the max rating.
The output Rating is based on total combined power used on each rail.
The 5vsb rail in particular for standby uses 15 to 30W
The 5v rail uses 30w to over 100w depending on what USB3 devices are on.
The 3.3V rail can use 99W of power depending on RAM and CPU and PCI-E useage, sata, ETC. yes thats right there is 3.3V wire on the sata power connections.
Thats why 225w combined is spec'd for 3.3V/5V combined power.
Dell specs 140 to 225w on many units all the way down to 305w tower power supplies. If you could use max output on all rails at the same time the DELL 305 would be rated OVER 400W.
Shouldnt say I am wrong without showing any reason why based on actual spec and measurement. Its even worse when we are talking about a yet to be released card with 12 pin 375w Aux PCI-E connector.
Its even worse when we are talking about a yet to be released card with 12 pin 375w Aux PCI-E connector.
The RTX 3070 that he wants to put into his machine pulls 220W from the rumor mill....where do you get the 375W for that card? The connector is rated up to 375W.......but in this case we aren't pulling that much.
I think we are talking about two different things...this thread is about the PSU recommendation for the R5 and the RTX 3070. 220W GPU + 116w PSU = 336W for the two most power hungry components at max load.
Please show me how a liquid cooled R5 and RTX 3070 would exceed the 500W overhead with the 850W PSU installed. Configure the machine so that the 3.3v/5/5v rails would be overloaded with his components maxed out with 3 fans, NVME M2, SATA headers filled with SSD and HDD's and PCI-e slots filled and that will suffice.
speedstep
9 Legend
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47K Posts
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October 4th, 2020 01:00
There may be an issue with the seasonic due to not having sufficient power on the 3.3v /5v rails combined.
DELL has 140W to 225W combined on those rails.
EPS12v 2.92 was updated to have 160W or more for those rails combined.
This is why EVGA 850 has 160W
https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-Bronze-Modular-Warranty-110-BQ-0850-V1/dp/B01FYDUCA0
https://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=110-BQ-0850-V1
https://seasonic.com/pub/media/pdf/consumer/datasheet/FOCUS-PLUS-Gold-FX.pdf
Note 225W DELL 875
30 AMPS 3.3v
32 AMPS 5v
Note 140W for DELL 850
speedstep
9 Legend
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47K Posts
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October 4th, 2020 10:00
The combined power on the 3.3v/5v rails has been an issue especially with video cards that use 225 to 300W of Aux power. This is not the card with a single 6 pin aux power but rather the cards that use 2 X 6 pin or worse a six pin and an 8 pin or 2 8pin connectors.
While it may work initially booting when stressed the PSU causes reboot or hang due to insufficient power.
So they also have a NEW connector 12 PIN Aux power.
A new 12-pin PCIe power connector is used with the NVIDIA Ampere generation graphics cards has been confirmed. The new connector takes a 2x8-pin power direct from the PSU and shrinks it down into a single 12-pin connector. That means mere mortal power supplies with only 2 x 6 pin or 2 x 8 pin need not apply. So telling people standard 550W units are fine is very bad advice IMHO.
Its not easy but you can FORCE the WRONG connector onto motherboard or GPU with firey results and EVERYTHING Dies because you are impatient. Note the keying on pin #4. The EPS-12V connector is not 6 +2 but it is 4 + 4 if the connector separates 4+4 its NOT FOR THE GPU.
If the connector separates 6 +2 its NOT FOR THE MOTHERBOARD.
speedstep
9 Legend
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47K Posts
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October 4th, 2020 12:00
PCI uses 3.3v 5v and 12v rails.
"Too much emphasis on the 3.3V and 5V rail on some of these posts."
I disagree. What is your proof that 140 to 225W is NOT needed for the combined 3.3v/5v rails with 30 Amps 3.3v and 32 Amps 5v ?
USB3 ports can use 5v from 5W to 100W per port depending on the type.
USB-C ports must be able to carry a minimum of 3 A current ( 60 W) but can also carry high-power 5 A current ( 100 W).
Combined power is an issue if you use too much. You arent allowed to use MAX POWER on ALL RAILS at the same time.
All rails matter not just a single spec of WATTS and a single rail of 12v.
You completely ignore the 375W video power consumption as well as the 12 PIN Aux PCI connector that is not trivial.
I do not agree that you can make assurances that a specific power supply is fine with a card that is not even released yet. NVIDIA pushed the rollout back from OCT 15. Unless the power supply comes with DUAL 8 pin aux power aka 375W dedicated to PCI-E I would say 850W is barely ok.
I do not see ANY vendors that say they have a PSU ready for 30 series cards.
This is also why the sonnet thunderbolt 3 box has 650W dedicated to JUST the Video card.
Sonnet eGFX Breakaway Box 650 (GPU-650WOC-TB3)
https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/egfx-breakaway-box-650?variant=7209888055330
speedstep
9 Legend
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47K Posts
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October 4th, 2020 16:00
The GPU uses 75W from the slot and 300W from the 2 8 pin connectors or the new 12 pin Aux connector. Thats not the only load on 3.3v or 5v or 12v however. Its also why people even with 1080 TI had issues with 900W and even 1000W power supplies. Its also why the Area 51 has 1500W option to support 3 cards at 300W each.
I'm not Dell
@DELL-Chris M may have insight as to DELL OEM vs Retail and the Stock Dell power supply vs seasonic with insufficient 3.3v 5v combined power.
12v 48 AMPS = 576W
5VSB 4 AMPS = 20W
5v 20 AMPS =100W USB ports
CPU 3.3v 30 amps =100w
PCi-E slot 3.3V 4 SLOTS 12 amps =40w
3.3V 4 AMPS RAM 4 SLOTS =35w
5V 3 amps hard drive =15w
886w total
We are done.
You will have to show your work with amp probe and scope.
My recommendations are based on sound engineering principles.
hardware capable of accurately measuring your PC’s overall power consumption is not inexpensive. However, if you need to make sure that you have data that is time-stamped and is measured to within a 0.5% margin of error
speedstep
9 Legend
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47K Posts
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October 4th, 2020 18:00
The GTX 1080 Ti has a 250-watt TDP VS GTX1080’s 180-watt TDP. As a result, the Ti features a six-pin and eight-pin power connector.
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-1080-ti/specifications
1080TI Thermal and Power Specs:
91 Maximum GPU Temperature (in C)
250 W Graphics Card Power (W)
600 W Recommended System Power (W)
One 6-pin (75W) , One 8-pin (150W) Supplementary Power Connectors
Again I'm not pulling these numbers from thin air. Flammability UL94V-1 minimum Material certification or certificate of compliance required with each lot to satisfy the Underwriters Laboratories SAFETY requirements. This is where 12V 18 amps MAX per aux connector comes from. The UL 94V the flammability rating that given to materials that tolerated vertical burning. CSA is canada and VDE is the european equivalent of UL. EU adds and additional safety rating for the environment about lead called ROHS.
https://www.vde.com/tic-en/portfolio/product-safety
If its only pulling 225W It doesnt need 2 X 8 pin or 1 X 12 pin connection.
75W from slot 150W from 8 pin X 2 is 375W. If it was only needing 225W then a Single 8 pin plus the slot would be fine.
Cards that need 300W have a 6 pin and 8 pin.
You arent looking at any of the charts or pictures from PCI-SIG or other engineering sources.
12 pins or 2 X 8 pins means 375W is needed to make sure it doesnt over current and shutdown or reboot the power supply due to over current.
UL/CSA rating for any single 12v rail as well as EPS12v is 18 AMPS per Aux connector absoulute max.
Loading and maximums are all layed out in the EPS12v design guide.
This is required for UL /CSA/VDE safety ratings. 2.91 increases the Margin for MAX power on the 3.3v/5v rails to 170W.
2.92 has Higher power levels; 850W, 900W, 950W for GPU & RAM DIMMs. Increase 5VSB capability for 4A (20W) and 6A (30W) options.
Add 12V 8 PIN connectors Update cross loading requirements; lower 12V min loading.
The spec is from 2004.
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~djm202/pdf/specifications/pcie/PCI_Express_x16_150W-ATX_1.0.pdf
r72019
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5.3K Posts
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October 3rd, 2020 19:00
EVGA G5 Gold 850 would be good. You will also need a right angle SATA adapter if you have a 3.5" HDD, otherwise the case might not fully close (The straight cables stick out too much).
r72019
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5.3K Posts
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October 3rd, 2020 19:00
If you have an optical DVD drive, you'll need a slimline SATA adapter cable. Other than that, no proprietary cables to the MOBO from the PSU.
Bronze vs Gold is just the efficiency of the PSU. Gold is more efficient than Bronze. In other words, how much AC power it needs to draw to power the PC, and how much heat is being generated in the exchange. The more efficient the less power it uses, and less heat it generates.
r72019
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October 3rd, 2020 20:00
Also, the proprietary cables are the power button and the LED/RGB cables. Those are separate from the PSU. The PSU is fully upgradeable, standard ATX width and height, just be mindful of the length especially with sleeved cables.
r72019
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October 3rd, 2020 20:00
The supplied 8 PIN power cables with most retail PSUs, EVGA and Seasonic included, will be fine for the SFF Aurora case. The OEM cables are cut to size for the Aurora to save space and money. Retailer PSU manufacturers have to cater to a larger audience, usually much larger PC cases too.
r72019
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October 3rd, 2020 20:00
On the right angle cable, something like this will work if the PSU doesn't come with right angle cables: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IBA3XCW/
EVGA G5 PSUs do not come with right angle cables, but I believe Seasonic Focus PSUs do.
The EVGA G5 Gold 850 would work.
FailSafeNY
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October 3rd, 2020 20:00
OK, so what I am hearing is:
1) Slimline SATA cable for DVD Drive. I think this is one, "CRJ SATA Power 15-Pin Male to SATA 6-Pin Slimline Sleeved Power Adapter Cable".
2) Right Angle SATA Adapter for HDD. Maybe this "OCR SATA 22P Male to Female 90 Degree 7+15P F/M for Hard Disk Interface".
3) Any good 850W PS ATX form factor
One more question. From the looks of it, the 3070 has it's power connection in the middle of the card, whereas the 1070 is towards the rear of the card and the current PS cable just makes it. Should I assume the current market for these PS units are supplied with cable that are at least long enough to reach the middle of the 3070?
Thank you all for your assistance.
HanoverB
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798 Posts
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October 4th, 2020 12:00
Too much emphasis on the 3.3V and 5V rail on some of these posts.
What I’ve been told that as power distribution chip architecture changed the chips started taking their power of the single 12v rail and less emphasis is placed on the 3.3v/5v rails.
The CPU and GPU tend to be the biggest consumers of power, when fully loaded, so a modern PSU has to provide most of its power at 12 volts. That 12v rail is what you should be looking at when looking at modern PSU capacity.
A modern CPU has its own converter on the motherboard which converts 12 volts to whatever voltage the CPU needs. Modern GPU's also have their own converters on the card which convert 12 volts into it's voltage requirement.
Back in the old days you the most of the chips onboard were directly connected to 3.3 or 5 volts and that's where those older PSU's provided most of its wattage. However, in new computers the PSU provides most of its power on the 12 volt rail and then various DC/DC converters throughout the computer convert it to whatever voltage is needed by that particular set of chips.
Bottom line: I wouldn’t worry about the 3.3v / 5v specs unless you are using the PSU in a much older machine where likely it wouldn't work anyway because it requires a different ATX spec.
From 09/11/20 article: https://itigic.com/voltages-of-12v-5v-and-3-3v-for-each-component/
From review of the Corsair AX1600i Titanium PSU, their flagship PSU where the combined 3.3v/5v rail is 180w…eliciting a comment of overkill.
I wouldn’t worry about the Seasonic PSU, here is a good take on it……the voltage stability and reilability is known to be stellar. I have had no issues with that PSU either per @Anonymous
HanoverB
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October 4th, 2020 14:00
@speedstep
Keep in mind this thread is about adding a RTX 3070 to an Aurora R5.
you wrote:
I do not agree that you can make assurances that a specific power supply is fine with a card that is not even released yet.
Agreed, but the more power hungry RTX 3080 has been released and reviewed/tested by many. One example:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/geforce-rtx-3080-founder-review,7.html
From their testing, Peak gaming power consumption RTX 3080 is 338W from their testing.
The R5 in question here on this thread has an i7 6700K likely which pulls 116W under load +/- depending on OC situations. That number I did not pull out of a hat either:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/core-i7-6700k-processor-review-desktop-skylake,8.html
So even with the RTX 3080, the total draw from the most power hungry components is 454W
So that leaves a “ weak” Seasonic 850W PSU with 400W of overhead which should be fine regardless of what is pulling power off the 3.3V and 5V rails.
I always enjoy reading your posts and do not disagree with your comments about total power draw, but in this particular thread about a R5 upgrade to the RTX 3070, the Seasonic should be fine. As well as the EVGA 850BQ.
When you start talking about power consumption of the new high end GPU's in the same machine with a newer 10900K CPU overclocked and pulling 300W+, then total power draw is important and a more robust PSU is indicated. But in this situation, the 850w should be fine.
Asus Recommended PSU for Ampere/Turing GPU's
speedstep
9 Legend
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October 4th, 2020 15:00
regardless of what is pulling power off the 3.3V and 5V rails.
Seasonic should be fine. I disagree specifically due to the specifications.
As well as the EVGA 850BQ.
combined 3.3V/5V POWER is higher for the EVGA.
Seasonic SSR-850FX
evga 850
https://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=110-BQ-0850-V1
I cannot agree with that because you CANNOT DRAW 100 percent max from each rail based on the max rating.
The output Rating is based on total combined power used on each rail.
The 5vsb rail in particular for standby uses 15 to 30W
The 5v rail uses 30w to over 100w depending on what USB3 devices are on.
The 3.3V rail can use 99W of power depending on RAM and CPU and PCI-E useage, sata, ETC. yes thats right there is 3.3V wire on the sata power connections.
Thats why 225w combined is spec'd for 3.3V/5V combined power.
Dell specs 140 to 225w on many units all the way down to 305w tower power supplies. If you could use max output on all rails at the same time the DELL 305 would be rated OVER 400W.
Shouldnt say I am wrong without showing any reason why based on actual spec and measurement. Its even worse when we are talking about a yet to be released card with 12 pin 375w Aux PCI-E connector.
HanoverB
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798 Posts
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October 4th, 2020 15:00
Huh?
@speedstep wrote:
Its even worse when we are talking about a yet to be released card with 12 pin 375w Aux PCI-E connector.
The RTX 3070 that he wants to put into his machine pulls 220W from the rumor mill....where do you get the 375W for that card? The connector is rated up to 375W.......but in this case we aren't pulling that much.
I think we are talking about two different things...this thread is about the PSU recommendation for the R5 and the RTX 3070. 220W GPU + 116w PSU = 336W for the two most power hungry components at max load.
Please show me how a liquid cooled R5 and RTX 3070 would exceed the 500W overhead with the 850W PSU installed. Configure the machine so that the 3.3v/5/5v rails would be overloaded with his components maxed out with 3 fans, NVME M2, SATA headers filled with SSD and HDD's and PCI-e slots filled and that will suffice.