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amphibian_x

30 Posts

42521

August 2nd, 2006 23:00

Re/Format vs Symantec System Restore

I just got a I6400/E1505 after running a 5100 for the last 3 years (which I was very happy with, but it was time to upgrade). About once a year I would format my 5100's HD to totally clear out the junk and start fresh with a completely clean, non-fragged disk, and I was content to go through the format & reinstallation of of my OS, drivers, applications & data to get my system back to new condition.

However, the 6400 I just got doesn't come with a XP CD, it came only with the Symantec System Restore. From what I understand, this restore tool "returns the system to its initial configuration," deleting all data files and added applications, yet from what I understand, it does this in only 6-10 minutes. That doesn't seem nearly enough time for the system to actually format the main partition, so does this mean it's simply deleting shortcuts to data files & applications but keeping all the accumulated junk that comes with basic usage/surfing?

I've read here on the forum that doing a cold format removes the Symantec System Restore partition and that it can not be replaced, and seeing as I don't have an XP CD with the system, it seems I can't do a clean format and re-install the operating system & drivers. So, am I as stuck as I think I am?

I guess my real question is how thorough is the Symantec Restore? Is it actually going to clear my HD of all data/applications/accumulated junk and really start from scratch (which is what I want), or does it just "pretend" to clear the disk?

ejn63

9 Legend

 • 

87.5K Posts

August 2nd, 2006 23:00

The restore is an image of the as-shipped system. I does indeed completely wipe out what's there and turn it back to the day you took it out of the box.

RGT1

97 Posts

August 2nd, 2006 23:00

I believe a cold reformat is better. I'm like you. I reformat my drive(s) every year just to "start fresh". After I received my E1705, I called Dell and requested the Windows XP Media Center install disc. I was willing to pay for it, but they sent it to me for free. Also got the Drivers/Software disc, along with the Media Direct install disc. Try the "Chat" feature in the support area. It's faster than waiting on the phone.

RGT

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 3rd, 2006 00:00

Oh, great, one response on each side of the fence. I'll wait to see if others add their opinions as I'm still not sure about this. (Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.)

ejn63, given the number of posts I see you've put up, I'd guess you know what you're talking about, but how do you know that the disc is really wiped? I'm insanely picky about getting rid of the garbage that Windows picks up along the way, so I'd like to know a bit more about the specifics of what the Symantec System Restore tool actually does. I hope it does what it says, because it would make my life nice and easy, but I don't want rely on a tool that might be cutting corners.

Message Edited by amphibian_x on 08-02-200608:07 PM

Message Edited by amphibian_x on 08-02-200608:09 PM

ejn63

9 Legend

 • 

87.5K Posts

August 3rd, 2006 00:00

The image is just that - an image of the system as-shipped. The drive is overwritten completely with the image on restore.

If you want the more efficient way to do it, build the system your way, and once your software is installed, make your own image (buy a copy of Ghost or TrueImage). When the need arises, you can restore the image and be back in 15 minutes (vs. hours of reinstalling, patching and reconfiguring XP manually).

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 3rd, 2006 03:00

ejn63, do you know anything about Norton Save & Resore? It says it is basically Ghost 10 plus some other bits & pieces. It's half the price of Ghost at my local Future Shop. Would this be a good app for my purposes?

dg1261

623 Posts

August 3rd, 2006 11:00

Reformatting provides no benefit prior to an image restore.  An image restore completely replaces the boot sector, all directories, and all files with the contents as of the date the image was created.  Dell's PC-Restore returns the partition to the state it was in when originally shipped.  Any programs or data you added to the partition after you received the system will be gone.  That includes viruses and registry entries.

(FTR, only the 'C' partition is replaced, so if you have your user documents in a separate partition they will not be overwritten.  Unfortunately, most systems have been shipped with only the one user partition so that user data ends up stored on the 'C' partition.)

FWIW, Acronis True Image seems to be generally regarded as more reliable and user-friendly than Ghost 10.  Norton Save & Restore is a different principle than imaging.  It's more akin to an oversized XP System Restore, which selectively backs up parts of a system.  Restoring from an image completely overwrites a partition, but restoring from XP System Restore or Norton S&R only reverts the backed up files and leaves everything else intact.

Note that Dell is shipping some new systems with a time-limited trial version of Ghost 10, but I don't know how much it costs if you decide to keep it.

 

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 3rd, 2006 15:00

dg1261, thanks for the details on Ghost, S&R and Acronis, which is just the information I was looking for; thanks to everyone who has commented so far as I now have a much better idea of what each of these tools does (especially because I was about to go by Norton Save & Restore this afternoon. I still have one question though:

I'm currently configuring the system out of the box (uninstalling some of the stuff that came with the system, customizing Windows a bit, installing applications [and I have a lot of applications to install], etc.). Once I have the system set up (and before moving my data files) can I use something like Ghost to save an image of just the C: partition? That way, when I want to, I can use the on-board Norton System Restore to return the system to it's out-of-the-box state, and then quickly restore my customized system configuration (rather than going through the process of again removing freebie stuff, modding Windows, installing apps, etc). This would still be a two-part process (first the OS image, then my customized image), but it would retain the system's original HD partitions AND be a lot more efficient than doing the second half manually.

Does this sound about right?

dg1261

623 Posts

August 3rd, 2006 20:00

"can I use something like Ghost to save an image of just the C: partition? ... (restoring) would still be a two-part process (first the OS image, then my customized image)"
 
Yes, a full image.  Remember, restoring from an image completely wipes the partition and replaces the partition with the entire contents as of the date the image was made.  Thus, it's not a two-step restore process, it's 'either/or'--either restore from your custom-made image to go back to that date, or restore from Dell's image to go back to the shipment date.  Your custom-made image is just as complete and viable as the Dell image, the only difference is they reflect the state of the partition at different points in time.
 
To add to the confusion, imaging programs are now beginning to include incremental backups.  They make a full image at some point in time, then an incremental backup at a later date to cover changes to the partition since the last full image.  To restore from an incremental backup is a two-step process, first restoring the underlying full image and then restoring the incremental.  Subsequently making a new full image will obsolete older full+incremental sets.
 
One of the advantages of the Dell image is that it (and the program to restore it) is free.  The disadvantages are that it has no means of creating a fresh image (after you've added your own programs) and it is hard-disk based (so if your hard disk dies or you upgrade to a larger disk, you lose it).  OTOH, if you buy your own imaging program you can create fresh images anytime you want, and you can store those images elsewhere (CD, DVD, external drive, network share, et al).

 

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 4th, 2006 01:00

dg1261, thanks again for being so thorough in your reply. It does seem I'm on the right track, so I'm going to grab a copy of Ghost and after I've finished customizing Windows and have installed all of my apps I'll create an image and save it to my external hard-drive.

One small uncertainty still lingers in my mind though: I'm not totally clear about whether I'll be creating an image of my ENTIRE C-drive (including the partition that has Norton System Restore on it) or just the "active" partition, which has the OS and all of my mods/applications. I'm sure this will make sense when I read the manual for Ghost, but perhaps you can reassure me one way or the other. Sorry I'm not grasping this all at once.

dg1261

623 Posts

August 4th, 2006 18:00

"... I'm going to grab a copy of Ghost and ... create an image and save it to my external hard-drive."
 
Make sure you think ahead to how you'll restore when you have to.  If you have to boot from the Ghost rescue CD or the Dell/Symantec Recovery Environment, test to make sure they can see your external drive.  Some people have trouble with particular drives.  For Ghost issues, you find a wealth of info on the Ghost forum at http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi.

"I'm not totally clear about whether I'll be creating an image of my ENTIRE C-drive ... or just the "active" partition"
 
That's a matter of personal preference.  If you might later want to restore the Dell partitions (for example, onto a new hard disk), you'll need to image them as well.  You can make a full-disk image of all three partitions, or you can make three images, each partition separately.
 
Before including the special Dell partitions in any image, however, you should prep by unhiding them.  Unhide them with ptedit/ptedit32, make the image, then rehide them.  Otherwise, Ghost doesn't handle them properly.  You can glean the hiding/unhiding details from my webpage at www.goodells.net/dellrestore.
 
 
Dan Goodell
 

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 4th, 2006 22:00

Once again, thanks for your reply, and again it's just what I needed before I jump in and start mucking around. I'll take some time to look around the Ghost forum, and your quick note on unhiding the DSR and DMD partitions is really helpful as I was curious about how to find them.

I think my plan would simply be to make an image of my "active" partition, being the modified OS and my applications, so that when I need/want to I can just restore that partition. Do I still need to unhide the other 2 partitions in order to specify that I only want to make an image of the "active" partition?

Again, thanks for the note about making sure my external drive is "visible" when I want to restore the image. To keep my endless questions going, how can I test this to be sure my external drive IS visible. Do I just boot from the Ghost CD and see if I can find it? I assume I can just cancel out of the Ghost boot at any time, so this seems to be the most logical plan to test how visible that external drive will be.

Oh, and by the way, if you know as much about displays as you do about drives, let me know if you have any ideas on another thread I've started:
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=insp_general&message.id=224073

dg1261

623 Posts

August 4th, 2006 22:00

"I think my plan would simply be to make an image of my "active" partition ... Do I still need to unhide the other 2 partitions?"

I don't think that should be necessary, but you should test it for yourself with a dry run.  This will give you confidence in the product and your technique.  Make an image of just the main partition and store it on the external drive.  Then boot from the Ghost CD and launch the app.  Locate the image on the external drive (here's where you'll find out if the CD-boot can find it), and have Ghost test the image.  It will do a "pretend" restore and tell you whether the image is good.  This will give you a very good idea of how the real restore process would go and even how long it would take.

 

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 4th, 2006 22:00

Great, perfect, I think I have what I need to give it a shot. Thanks so much for all of your help...

amphibian_x

30 Posts

August 5th, 2006 17:00

Me again. I'm pretty sure I've got this straight, and am going to do the test-run you suggested, but I just want to confirm this one more time to make sure I'm clear. After making an image of the "active" partition, if/when I boot from the CD to restore that image this will only replace the "active" partition, correct? It won't touch either the DSR or DMD partitions? I'd really like to avoid doing anything to those partitions so that they're always an extra back-up to any emergency.

dg1261

623 Posts

August 6th, 2006 01:00

"if/when I boot from the CD to restore that image this will only replace the "active" partition, correct?"
 
Depends on what type of restore you do.  I don't use Ghost 10, so don't know exactly what terminology it now uses (they've changed terms from earlier versions), but the basic idea is that you can restore to a disk or restore to a partition.
 
When you do a disk restore, you select the image (of the single partition) as source and select the whole disk as target, and Ghost will wipe all partitions from the disk and restore/resize with the single partition from the image.  You'll end up with a disk with one partition.
 
When you do a partition restore, you select the image as source and select a specific partition on the disk as target, and Ghost will wipe only that one partition and restore/resize just that one partition, leaving any other partitions intact.
 
BTW, it's not material whether the partition is active or not.  Active status is determined by a flag in the partition table, and there is nothing on the partition itself that indicates whether or not it is active.  Thus, when you image a partition, that image contains no information regarding active status.  This is useful to remember because sometimes following a Ghost restore the system doesn't boot, and it could be because the partition simply hasn't been marked active in the partition table.
 

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