'...I want a official dell responce on what i should be doing and why teh disks are replaced...'
DCF is basically a user to user forum, not Dell to user.
===============================================================================
Personally, I would replace the hard drive.
Dell will usually replace the hard drive under warranty, if it fails the Dell diagnostic test.
Bev.
===================================================
Please don't send me questions about your system by DCF Messenger.
Post the issue in the appropriate Board, where they will be answered.
Message Edited by shesagordie on 03-29-2008 02:17 PM
Let me guess, liability protection, smart move on dells part.
the problem is that, there is a lot of "misinformation" out there.
Computers are like a black box, you dont know how they work.
Its why offical documentation is the only way i work for long term solutions like this.
"Id just replace it the drive" well, thats just not helpful.
I also know dell will replace the drive, as was said in orignal post, so thats not helpful either.
As i said, im looking for a long term solution.
Not all drives are under warantee.
I personanally make users purchase new drives if i need to do a drive recovery for all sitations right not, esp if have to do data recovery with rstudio. I even make them replace them with one bad sector.
I may have to be more desriminting in the future.
I wish there was a guide on this but i doubt one exists.. .i guesss
Message Edited by jimmyinCT on 03-29-2008 04:46 PM
so your saying to do a memory check when we do a hard disk check? I dont see how a memory chip can actually cause a physical defect to the drive that is read from the bootable dell diagnostic CD or partition.
What are the actual dell hard disk tests doing?
I do have people that have had 3-5 bad drives in with one machine, they tend to be in humid areas such as top floors as a common denominator. This all with the old 270/280s with teh bad caps though too which could have been a factor too..
From experience, you can yeild varying results with this. Sometimes letting format lock out bad sectors works just fine. Sometimes letting format lockout bad sectors works fine, for awhile. It all depends on the failure point the drive is at. If you are concerned about reliability, data protection and security, a NEW hard Drive should be installed.
Sometimes, a bad memory module can corrupt a hard drive by writing bad information to the drive, or not writing information when it should. Memory should always be a factor when dealing with hard drive corruption problems. Had a DELL last week with this very symptom. I had reformatted the drive and installed all new, awhile later the drive was corrupt again. I then replaced the memory and all was well. Go figure.
Yes, definately run a memory check. I just swap out the modules for safety sake to get it done as quick as possible. I have seen about 3 machines now in the last year with bad memory causing disk corruption. Replaced memory, no more corruption. I don't know why, or how it can do it, but the results are obvious.
Any modern drive that shows bad sectors should be immediately replaced unless the drive's reliability doesn't matter.
All drives made in the last 10-15 years have spare sectors mapped per track, which are silently called into use when others go bad. You never see them - only when the originals PLUS the spares go bad, do bad sectors appear. The drive has then lost part of its error correcting ability and it's just a matter of time before more sectors go bad and data is lost.
Let me guess, liability protection, smart move on dells part.
......
"Id just replace it the drive" well, thats just not helpful.
I also know dell will replace the drive, as was said in orignal post, so thats not helpful either.
if you read 10,000 or so of
shesagordie posts you would know they don't work for dell and give their valued opinion at no charge to ignore at your peril.
There are official Dell people here and they only reply to a few questions leaving valued volunteers such as
shesagordie to teach the rest of us.....
===================================================
Please don't send me questions about your system by DCF Messenger.
Post the issue in the appropriate Board, where they will be answered.
I know how much work it is to get numbers like that.
although for me, answering questions helps me become better too.
i did catch myself though after a while, i realized how much time i was putting into it.
I dunno. Anyway, with this topic, there really is not real answer about a few bad sectors i guess, just a general consensus that most of us including me will always replace the drive. I guess if the manufacters stopped replacing them when tehy were underwarantee, we would not have the option. As for geek squad, well, i cancelled the service i bought for my mom (i guess i cant get free of her constant pestering questions) as i cant stand the thought of them reformatting her drive each time a problem occurs. Orignally, before i diagnosed the hard disk, the problem was that cursor didnt move, and they were giong to walk her through a reformat over the phone for that, where changing teh mouse fixed the problem.. i dunno. Good help hard to find.
Message Edited by jimmyinCT on 03-30-2008 06:06 PM
Unfortunately there are so many thousands, even millions of avenues for problems and fix-its on computers, because of the complex diversity of the millions of systems out there. The same apparent problem can have more then one answer, and be raleted to another set of problems. Another thing, when you are working with the novice/inexperienced computer operator, many times they are unable to give you correct, much less detailed information on what the problem actually is. As a technician, you tend to gravitate toward what has worked in the past. Many times those fixes do not work, because the problem is actually related to something else they may not have discovered yet, be it hardware or software. Many times they may have installed something and not realized that something else is broke untill sometime later, so you don't get all the info. It's like playing dice with a whole box of dice, you will never get the same results on any throw.
So as far as "good help is hard to find", even years of experience can still produce a vacuum in certain situations.
As far as the Geek Squad goes, they are out to make big dough, they will sell you the big fix rather then search for an easier fix that will keep your hard work and data intact.
It's also a good thing to note that "formatting" a hard drive via Operating System CDs merely rewrite the master boot record. A "format" doesn't touch the other sectors on a hard drive. It's actually doing a "Read Verify". Hence, when you're trying to reformat a drive with defects you'll see "trying to recover allocation unit" error messages or something equivalent. The defects or "bad sectors" that become noticeable occur after "error correction" has failed to either "reallocate or recertify" a location. If the amount of data that was miswritten falls outside the hard drive's error correction then it's treated as an "uncorrectable read" error, which can only be corrected with a successful write at that location. This forces the "reallocation" or "recertify" event that could get you back on track. If your drive has few defects then it might not be neccessary to replace it (especially if the blocks were "recertified"). If your drive has many then even if the "reallocation" events occur and are successful, your performance may be degraded to a degree that it's worth replacing the drive.
shesagordie
10 Elder
•
46K Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 18:00
'...I want a official dell responce on what i should be doing and why teh disks are replaced...'
DCF is basically a user to user forum, not Dell to user.
===============================================================================
Personally, I would replace the hard drive.
Dell will usually replace the hard drive under warranty, if it fails the Dell diagnostic test.
Bev.
===================================================
Please don't send me questions about your system by DCF Messenger.
Post the issue in the appropriate Board, where they will be answered.
jimmyinCT
33 Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 20:00
wow, 30k posts and you dont wrok for dell?
Let me guess, liability protection, smart move on dells part.
the problem is that, there is a lot of "misinformation" out there.
Computers are like a black box, you dont know how they work.
Its why offical documentation is the only way i work for long term solutions like this.
"Id just replace it the drive" well, thats just not helpful.
I also know dell will replace the drive, as was said in orignal post, so thats not helpful either.
As i said, im looking for a long term solution.
Not all drives are under warantee.
I personanally make users purchase new drives if i need to do a drive recovery for all sitations right not, esp if have to do data recovery with rstudio. I even make them replace them with one bad sector.
I may have to be more desriminting in the future.
I wish there was a guide on this but i doubt one exists.. .i guesss
jimmyinCT
33 Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 20:00
so your saying to do a memory check when we do a hard disk check? I dont see how a memory chip can actually cause a physical defect to the drive that is read from the bootable dell diagnostic CD or partition.
What are the actual dell hard disk tests doing?
I do have people that have had 3-5 bad drives in with one machine, they tend to be in humid areas such as top floors as a common denominator. This all with the old 270/280s with teh bad caps though too which could have been a factor too..
5150Guy
446 Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 20:00
Hello,
From experience, you can yeild varying results with this. Sometimes letting format lock out bad sectors works just fine. Sometimes letting format lockout bad sectors works fine, for awhile. It all depends on the failure point the drive is at. If you are concerned about reliability, data protection and security, a NEW hard Drive should be installed.
Sometimes, a bad memory module can corrupt a hard drive by writing bad information to the drive, or not writing information when it should. Memory should always be a factor when dealing with hard drive corruption problems. Had a DELL last week with this very symptom. I had reformatted the drive and installed all new, awhile later the drive was corrupt again. I then replaced the memory and all was well. Go figure.
5150Guy
5150Guy
446 Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 20:00
Yes, definately run a memory check. I just swap out the modules for safety sake to get it done as quick as possible. I have seen about 3 machines now in the last year with bad memory causing disk corruption. Replaced memory, no more corruption. I don't know why, or how it can do it, but the results are obvious.
5150guy
ejn63
9 Legend
•
87.5K Posts
0
March 29th, 2008 23:00
Any modern drive that shows bad sectors should be immediately replaced unless the drive's reliability doesn't matter.
All drives made in the last 10-15 years have spare sectors mapped per track, which are silently called into use when others go bad. You never see them - only when the originals PLUS the spares go bad, do bad sectors appear. The drive has then lost part of its error correcting ability and it's just a matter of time before more sectors go bad and data is lost.
korrson
592 Posts
0
March 30th, 2008 20:00
shesagordie
10 Elder
•
46K Posts
0
March 30th, 2008 20:00
:)
Bev.
===================================================
Please don't send me questions about your system by DCF Messenger.
Post the issue in the appropriate Board, where they will be answered.
jimmyinCT
33 Posts
0
March 30th, 2008 22:00
30k posts, thats like a full time job.
the other guy has 50k..
I have 11k posts on a fishing forum in my area.
I know how much work it is to get numbers like that.
although for me, answering questions helps me become better too.
i did catch myself though after a while, i realized how much time i was putting into it.
I dunno. Anyway, with this topic, there really is not real answer about a few bad sectors i guess, just a general consensus that most of us including me will always replace the drive. I guess if the manufacters stopped replacing them when tehy were underwarantee, we would not have the option. As for geek squad, well, i cancelled the service i bought for my mom (i guess i cant get free of her constant pestering questions) as i cant stand the thought of them reformatting her drive each time a problem occurs. Orignally, before i diagnosed the hard disk, the problem was that cursor didnt move, and they were giong to walk her through a reformat over the phone for that, where changing teh mouse fixed the problem.. i dunno. Good help hard to find.
5150Guy
446 Posts
0
March 31st, 2008 00:00
Unfortunately there are so many thousands, even millions of avenues for problems and fix-its on computers, because of the complex diversity of the millions of systems out there. The same apparent problem can have more then one answer, and be raleted to another set of problems. Another thing, when you are working with the novice/inexperienced computer operator, many times they are unable to give you correct, much less detailed information on what the problem actually is. As a technician, you tend to gravitate toward what has worked in the past. Many times those fixes do not work, because the problem is actually related to something else they may not have discovered yet, be it hardware or software. Many times they may have installed something and not realized that something else is broke untill sometime later, so you don't get all the info. It's like playing dice with a whole box of dice, you will never get the same results on any throw.
So as far as "good help is hard to find", even years of experience can still produce a vacuum in certain situations.
As far as the Geek Squad goes, they are out to make big dough, they will sell you the big fix rather then search for an easier fix that will keep your hard work and data intact.
5150Guy
Ryanh6178
670 Posts
0
March 31st, 2008 18:00
It's also a good thing to note that "formatting" a hard drive via Operating System CDs merely rewrite the master boot record. A "format" doesn't touch the other sectors on a hard drive. It's actually doing a "Read Verify". Hence, when you're trying to reformat a drive with defects you'll see "trying to recover allocation unit" error messages or something equivalent. The defects or "bad sectors" that become noticeable occur after "error correction" has failed to either "reallocate or recertify" a location. If the amount of data that was miswritten falls outside the hard drive's error correction then it's treated as an "uncorrectable read" error, which can only be corrected with a successful write at that location. This forces the "reallocation" or "recertify" event that could get you back on track. If your drive has few defects then it might not be neccessary to replace it (especially if the blocks were "recertified"). If your drive has many then even if the "reallocation" events occur and are successful, your performance may be degraded to a degree that it's worth replacing the drive.